Pre-determined and/or Free Will?

[anonpanda]

Admittedly I planned to make somewhat of an extension to the 'Does god exist' thread, but It I think was asked there due to the nature of how it's question unfolded.

Nonetheless, my question to everyone is if they believe they're for lack of better words 'hypnotized' while following along a pre-determined path or fate (free will) by say, God or some sort of a higher power.

From personal observations we take free will for granted, in reality we we plan to do actual events that we think are spontaneous or sporadic, but fail to realize are actually calculatible / tangible with an inevitable outcome.

To me this means that from birth, everybody is assigned and follows a pre-determined path, for example:

If you had the ability to see a day into the future, you could place any amount of money on a bet, i.e final scores of a game, and completely benefit from it. When the game starts as long as you haven't interfered in any way, you will know the exact scores of the game from the previous night watching it. One can go to say this would appear to look like a parallel of eternities. You could, however, throw some free will and perhaps chaos into the equation, originally, the team you bet against lost, you were 9 points off, but now you have changed your destiny and path, at your own discretion, yet the rest of the world that is oblivious to your lapse and continues following their predetermined destiny's.

Perhaps i'm just confused and there is no free will, it's just an illusion.

Additions?

 

[Annex]

I wouldn't say that people doing specific things means a pre-determined path, its more than based on your attributes and environmental factors you are more likely to follow certain paths than others. I for example have horrible handwriting and drawing and such due to an injury related fine motor problem, I therefore will NOT likely become an artist because of the tedium related to doing that activity based on the condition I acquired.

 

[anonpanda]

I wouldn't say that people doing specific things means a pre-determined path, its more than based on your attributes and environmental factors you are more likely to follow certain paths than others. I for example have horrible handwriting and drawing and such due to an injury related fine motor problem, I therefore will NOT likely become an artist because of the tedium related to doing that activity based on the condition I acquired.

Looking further at the universe through a method of discovery harnessed through exploration. I truly believe that everything has some predetermined path that it follows.

Could your attributes and environmental surroundance not be nothing more then a parallel in the universes predetermined path? I.e there's already a plan for everything, was the universes creation even the big bang brought into being because it was predetermined?

Perhaps your injury was predetermined, causing you to follow the path you're currently on, your injury was caused by a will or force to do something desirable that resulted in a consequence. This of course means you continue in your life unless challenged oblivious to predetermined paths and choose to view it as a "chance" however, relativity casts aside chance.

 

[Annex]

Looking further at the universe through a method of discovery harnessed through exploration. I truly believe that everything has some predetermined path that it follows.

Could your attributes and environmental surroundance not be nothing more then a parallel in the universes predetermined path? I.e there's already a plan for everything, was the universes creation even the big bang brought into being because it was predetermined?

Perhaps your injury was predetermined, causing you to follow the path you're currently on, your injury was caused by a will or force to do something desirable that resulted in a consequence. This of course means you continue in your life unless challenged oblivious to predetermined paths and choose to view it as a "chance" however, relativity casts aside chance.

But there is no evidence to suggest that anything you state is even remotely true, all you have done is state things which can't be proven when the burden of proof is upon you to prove what you are stating. You can't tell someone that they have to look at the universe differently because you think something different that you cannot prove (basically a religion of sorts).

What evidence is there to support that we have predetermined paths? There simply is none, people are a product of their environment is something that has been studied over and over and proven time and time again.

 

[anonpanda]

Could, is, i truly believe, maybe, opinion, perhaps, possible, if, "?"

None of these words nor have any of my statements been directly claiming to stating facts. This thread is nothing more then personal opinions and beliefs as i've stated above "i truly believe".

 

[nodnarbusn]

None of these words nor have any of my statements been directly claiming to stating facts. This thread is nothing more then personal opinions and beliefs as i've stated above "i truly believe".

If you dont want to back your statements with facts atleast back it with reasoning as to WHY you feel that way, so far you have essentially made a thread that can be chalked up to one sentence "I believe in destiny". I however disagree completely, a person makes their own destiny.. so many people are born into poverty and or horrible situations with no forseeable way out only to strive and be successful in ways way outside of what anyone could have possibly assumed our "predetermined". I have a feeling this whole argument is just going to end up being a "god is/isnt real thread" because there is no reasoning you can fall back upon aside from situational stories and i think you are going to fall upon the "god theory" as justification of your destiny idea. Granted this is just how your posts kind of lead me to feel, hopefully if this isnt another "i belive in x because god is real!" thread (which would be promptly closed as its an age old argument with a stickied thread) id be open to hear some backing to your statements as to why you feel this way .

 

[anonpanda]

If you dont want to back your statements with facts atleast back it with reasoning as to WHY you feel that way, so far you have essentially made a thread that can be chalked up to one sentence "I believe in destiny". I however disagree completely, a person makes their own destiny.. so many people are born into poverty and or horrible situations with no forseeable way out only to strive and be successful in ways way outside of what anyone could have possibly assumed our "predetermined". I have a feeling this whole argument is just going to end up being a "god is/isnt real thread" because there is no reasoning you can fall back upon aside from situational stories and i think you are going to fall upon the "god theory" as justification of your destiny idea. Granted this is just how your posts kind of lead me to feel, hopefully if this isnt another "i belive in x because god is real!" thread (which would be promptly closed as its an age old argument with a stickied thread) id be open to hear some backing to your statements as to why you feel this way .

You seem to be completely oblivious to the entire concept of this read.

I am not stating facts, not picking sides, i research both possibilities. If you would like me to pick i can: Pre-determined.

Before time God seemed to know what would happen. He knew that Job would not betray him, if he thought otherwise he wouldn't have made the example for Satan.

http://scripturetext.com/matthew/26-34.htm
http://scripturetext.com/matthew/26-21.htm

Jesus knew before hand that all these events would soon unfold to bring about his crucifixion.

http://scripturetext.com/genesis/2-9.htm

This is not the "does got exist" thread as stated above, hence enough evidence and differential claim to publish a separate thread.

 

[nodnarbusn]

You seem to be completely oblivious to the entire concept of this read.

I am not stating facts, not picking sides, i research both possibilities. If you would like me to pick i can: Pre-determined.

Before time God seemed to know what would happen. He knew that Job would not betray him, if he thought otherwise he wouldn't have made the example for Satan.

http://scripturetext.com/matthew/26-34.htm
http://scripturetext.com/matthew/26-21.htm

Jesus knew before hand that all these events would soon unfold to bring about his crucifixion.

http://scripturetext.com/genesis/2-9.htm

This is not the "does got exist" thread as stated above, hence enough evidence and differential claim to publish a separate thread.

Look no need to be an asshole with comments like "You seem to be completely oblivious to the entire concept of this read." you havent backed any thing you have said with any reasoning, you have basically just said i believe things are predetermined and then linked me with CHRISTIAN BULLSHIT. Your standpoint on the matter is very clear and if you read my post you would realize i know your view on it, once again im asking you to provide some NON religious reasoning as to why you feel that way.

 

[T V]

people are a product of their environment is something that has been studied over and over and proven time and time again.

The environment that molds us is set out before of us as soon as we're born.
Aren't the choices you make directly influenced by your experiences in that environment? I've been trying to think of instances were that isn't necessarily true but have come up with none so far.

You could choose to alter the environment to your liking, but even then the act of doing so would be influenced by whatever experiences you may have had in the previous setting.

 

[Annex]

The environment that molds us is set out before of us as soon as we're born.
Aren't the choices you make directly influenced by your experiences in that environment? I've been trying to think of instances were that isn't necessarily true but have come up with none so far.

You could choose to alter the environment to your liking, but even then the act of doing so would be influenced by whatever experiences you may have had in the previous setting.

This is untrue, I find it hard to believe that things that will gravely affect choices you make such as close friends dying in accidents with intoxicated drivers to be set out as soon as you are born. These experiences ultimately prove free will in that someone from the ghetto is likely to use crack but if their parents died of a crack OD then they will think significantly more and likely not use crack when their environment otherwise would have told them to.

 

[anonpanda]

Look no need to be an asshole with comments like "You seem to be completely oblivious to the entire concept of this read." you havent backed any thing you have said with any reasoning, you have basically just said i believe things are predetermined and then linked me with CHRISTIAN BULLSHIT. Your standpoint on the matter is very clear and if you read my post you would realize i know your view on it, once again im asking you to provide some NON religious reasoning as to why you feel that way.

Lol, sigh..

This is untrue, I find it hard to believe that things that will gravely affect choices you make such as close friends dying in accidents with intoxicated drivers to be set out as soon as you are born. These experiences ultimately prove free will in that someone from the ghetto is likely to use crack but if their parents died of a crack OD then they will think significantly more and likely not use crack when their environment otherwise would have told them to.

His argument is based on 'we're products of our environment' which is partially true.

Our environment teaches us knowledge and forces us to make decisions.

We start out a product of our genes. After that, our environment provides food for growth, events for experience, parents to guide, and opportunities for decisions. Some of that we have control over and some of that we do not. Some of our actions are gene based like fight or flight, alcoholics or non-alcoholics, etc.

 

[Bedwetter]

I believe that we are all born with free will but morals and things we learn from other people limit that free will to what is personally acceptable to us. We still have free will within those "boundaries", but there are many exceptions like people who have a short fuse can suddendly forget all of that and act freely, expressing their true emotions.

The claim you had about knowing a game result in advance is very complicated. Some physicists believe that every single decision ever made by anyone, instantly creates an immense or maybe even infinite amount of parallel universes in which you made a different choice and we continue our lives in the one we chose. That is very hard to believe but it might aswell be true. Theories like this one would better fit another discussion though.

I do believe we have free will within the possibilities that are given to us, but those possibilities are very limited for most people. I also do not like the fact that most people think they are better off following a pre-determined path rather than using it.

 

[nodnarbusn]

Lol, sigh..



His argument is based on 'we're products of our environment' which is partially true.

Our environment teaches us knowledge and forces us to make decisions.

We start out a product of our genes. After that, our environment provides food for growth, events for experience, parents to guide, and opportunities for decisions. Some of that we have control over and some of that we do not. Some of our actions are gene based like fight or flight, alcoholics or non-alcoholics, etc.

"Lol sigh" isnt anything backing your initial argument for people living on a predetermined path all you have done is link me bible passages, if thats all you got im not interested. Provide some reasoning behind your thoughts and maybe people would take you more seriously..

 

[anonpanda]

I believe that we are all born with free will but morals and things we learn from other people limit that free will to what is personally acceptable to us. We still have free will within those "boundaries", but there are many exceptions like people who have a short fuse can suddendly forget all of that and act freely, expressing their true emotions.

The claim you had about knowing a game result in advance is very complicated. Some physicists believe that every single decision ever made by anyone, instantly creates an immense or maybe even infinite amount of parallel universes in which you made a different choice and we continue our lives in the one we chose. That is very hard to believe but it might aswell be true. Theories like this one would better fit another discussion though.

I do believe we have free will within the possibilities that are given to us, but those possibilities are very limited for most people. I also do not like the fact that most people think they are better off following a pre-determined path rather than using it.

This entirely conflicts with what you're trying to establish.

You claim that everyone is born with free will, yet you state "people who have a short fuse".

These people with "short fuses" have already been following their predetermined path, i,e their temper, given to them by the events in their childhood, which brings us back to "you are a product to your environment". Despite how much "control" you believe you have in your life, it all boils down to who your PARENTS were, and WHERE you were born and raised. The obvious reasons are that you can only be as attractive or smart as your parents (this also applies to the emotional state of them, temper). Indirectly, your parents determine how and where you will be educated and which opportunities you will get. They also set a benchmark for what success is and what is acceptable. If your parents teach you that its "ok" to throw a fit and have a temper whenever you deem necessary you're going to believe that its "ok" to hit someone whenever they don't give you what you want.

"Lol sigh" isnt anything backing your initial argument for people living on a predetermined path all you have done is link me bible passages, if thats all you got im not interested. Provide some reasoning behind your thoughts and maybe people would take you more seriously..

I can already tell your "debates" will not benefit me in anyway, no gain in my knowledge at all, the obvious lack of intellectual comprehension you're branded to, i've exhibited telltale signs that any attempted discussions you try to participate in are not informative enough for me, therefore my dismissal, i.e you don't have a grade school student teach college.

 

I like to think about it with John Locke's analogy:

A sleeping man is locked in a darkened room. On awakening he decides he will remain in the room, unaware that the room is locked. In reality the man has no freedom to choose, he cannot get out of the room. However, his ignorance of his true condition has led him to believe that he does have the freedom to choose to remain in the room.

A main argument for Determinism is that we only appear to be free because we are ignorant of all the causes in the world around us. Free will, therefore appears as an illusion.