Potential Pardon System Changes

[tMoon]

This thread is built on http://www.sythe.org/suggestions/1833073-bringing-back-banned-users.html

Basically, instead of attempting to allow a (potential) mass amount of older users to come back, perhaps make improvements to the pardon system in an attempt to ease access to re-joining Sythe.


I myself think users whom scammed very little/have been banned for years are put through too much scrutiny; furthermore, it is easy for an individual to get one "support" or "no support" with no other responses. Once that first post is made, the 7 day clock starts ticking and once it's out, the pardon is denied. there may be no actual reason for the denial outside of the fact that no staff posted their opinions. These are users that could potentially be big parts of our community.

This is in by no means a complete list of suggestions and it is plenty possible all of my suggestions are lacking. Any input is appreciated.

The Problem:
- Sythe community is shrinking
- Many users could become valued users (providing they're given a second chance)
- While there is a pardon system in place, it can be improved upon.

Pardon Suggestions:

Edit 5/5/15:

-Establishment of Mod Score for Pardons
--Help provide an incentive for mods to participate
-- They have other duties and need to fulfill their quota

- Removal of the 7 Day window
-- Go off the premise of 5 yes (accepted) 5 no's (denied)
--- Could feasibly change the numbers and go off a percentage of staff users at the time
-- Gives staff more time to interact with pardons
-- Also ensures individuals are not simply denied due to lack of input

- Ignore "low level scams"
-- Under (amount here) user is basically guaranteed a pardon
-- Character, how many times the individual has scammed, whether the individual has matured, how old the individual was, etc. should come into context.


- Ignore ban evasion
-- If the individual has ban evaded/been banned for evasion multiple times, ignore it.
-- If said user scammed on a ban evading account, amount and frequency should be brought into consideration


- Bring back conditional pardons, "Probationary" or "Market Banned"
-- You can be on the fence of pardoning an individual
-- Allows a "probationary" period to take place and to see how the individual may behave.
-- In such a period, individual can be banned at staff discretion.
-- Could be used for individuals whom committed more nefarious acts

-- It's possible your opinion on an individual will change in 6 months after you deny their pardon, but will it actually? If they tell you the exact same story in 6 months, are you any more inclined to go "alright, you're a full-fledged member now!"

You're just asking them to wait longer for another chance of being shot down, potentially promoting ban-evading. It could be more effective to allow such users to join under a probationary standing.

- Related to conditional pardons, but offer SVU as a stipulation
-- Individual used to be into blackhat? Scammed a significant amount, but it's believable they've changed/grown up? Require SVU.


- Establishment of a "Pardon Team"
-- Staff are busy. They have real lives, mod score, dealing with users asking questions, their own online businesses, all that jazz.
-- Pardons can be time consuming and they may not have time for them in combination of their other duties
-- Establish a team thats job is to to basically review the pardon information.
--- Once this information is confirmed, have it immediately moved to staff for voting.

This would an extra layer to the pardon system. The "Pardon Team" would be a group of Sythe users (ex: Community Development Team) that review said information provided in pardons. They would confirm the information provided is real & ease the burden placed on staff prior to voting. Once the team confirms the provided information is correct, the pardon is forwarded to staff that simply vote on it for approval.

Possible Form System?:
- I am aware there is a layout for pardons to be posted in
- Perhaps create an official form that is filled out
-- Ex: When "Create New Thread" is clicked, there are specific fields that must be filled out for the thread to be posted.
--- This would autofill the thread layout and provide a nicely formated, easy to read layout.
- Such a layout would also allow an easier question basis. Instead of writing up "Have you been banned, if so see next question." There could be a checkbox. If the box is checked yes, the next question with a corresponding field to respond to would appear.

Current Pardon Thread:

Originally Posted by Contents must include
Your profile link:
Report/post/reason that got you banned:
Proof of contacting victims for repayment or repayment of victims:
Anything you weren't banned for but want to confess to now:
Detailed description of the events that took place and why you think we should forgive you:
Did you fully read and follow this sticky thread in the pardon section?:

Possible Thread:

Your Profile Link:
How many years ago were you banned?:
Thread linking to your ban reason (the scam report):
Ban Reason:
Currency equivalent to amount scammed:
-- If under (amount here) no attempt to contact a banned Sythe user is needed
-- If over (amount here), if your pardon is approved you will be considered a "Probationary User" for (time here)
Is the user you scammed still active?:
-- Have you refunded the individual?
Have you ban-evaded?:
-- If so, please list accounts:
-- Were the accounts banned, if so what for?
Are you currently ban-evading?:
When was the last time you scammed?:
Why do you think you should be able to re-join Sythe?:

Note: A form would be much sleeker than this and relevant questions would appear when such options are checked.


Regarding Activity:
This would hopefully help bolster some activity on Sythe, but community brainstorming for bringing in more users to Sythe would probably be wise.

 

The level of offense and time since the incident is always taken into account already. I'll never support ignoring ban evasion as it shows a lack of character. I'll never support a return of conditional returns either, market banned/probationary users can still scam easily.

In regards to a pardon team, a better move would be to have pardons included in mod score. By current standards there is pretty much 0 incentive to participate in pardons asides from "it being expected" and someone having to kick up a fuss if they aren't getting looked at.

 

[gracienc]

I think everyone deserves a second chance. However, recidivism should not be pardoned, in my opinion.

The level of offense and time since the incident is always taken into account already. I'll never support ignoring ban evasion as it shows a lack of character. I'll never support a return of conditional returns either, market banned/probationary users can still scam easily.

In regards to a pardon team, a better move would be to have pardons included in mod score. By current standards there is pretty much 0 incentive to participate in pardons asides from "it being expected" and someone having to kick up a fuss if they aren't getting looked at.

I'm not that sure users that are market banned will be able to scam so easily as you say. People who would get scammed by market banned members would be the kind of people that would fall for other types of scams, so I think the problem wouldn't be unbanning and giving a market ban.

 

- Sythe community is shrinking

You aren't considering the variables for that outcome. You always reiterated that this is a cheating forum for "kids". Maybe some of those kids who were once members grew up. The Sythe community has been "shrinking" for years. We should take that with a grain of salt because that never seems to be the case. In what way is the Sythe community dying? Are you talking about outside the market? Well you aren't considering a few things.

A) This is a market website first.

B) Saturation of topics.

C) A lot of topic subjects aren't favorable to everyone. The participant outcome may increase as more members are being pardoned, but not dramatically enough to show significant change. The whole "Sythe is dying" movement will show up again inevitably.

D) You can't force discussion.

- Many users could become valued users (providing they're given a second chance)

"Could"

Like I've said before. This is a market website first. Most people who are pardoned come back for the market. If they participate outside of it, cool, but it's not a given. We shouldn't risk bringing back the wrong people just so we can fill this arbitrary space of emptiness.

- While there is a pardon system in place, it can be improved upon.

You're trying to take away discretion of staff on pardons to favor who? Your friends? I'm all for change as long as we're being objective and sound here. Guarantees in a pardon? Am I looking at this right? Where are these scammers being held accountable for their actions?!

 

[Superfluous]

Not against this at all, and I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt in pardons unless there is very sketchy or outright damning evidence that keeps me from doing so in my best judgement.

I actually think that our first change should be to the 7-day rule, doing better about requiring staff to vote on pardons, and disallowing non-votes to count as "no" votes. Essentially I want people to have to read more pardons... and I feel like a lot of the things you're after would happen naturally if more people actually had to read/vote on all of the pardons. I'm not sure if this would be more successful with a shorter (i.e., more urgent) or longer (less taxing) time-window, but I think something should be done. Thoughts?

 

Honestly, although it shouldn't happen, I think mandatory votes on every pardon would see more follow-the-crowd votes. Although is that a non-issue since most Globals vote on them in the second stage more thoughtfully any way?

 

[Show Off]

Not against this at all, and I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt in pardons unless there is very sketchy or outright damning evidence that keeps me from doing so in my best judgement.

I actually think that our first change should be to the 7-day rule, doing better about requiring staff to vote on pardons, and disallowing non-votes to count as "no" votes. Essentially I want people to have to read more pardons... and I feel like a lot of the things you're after would happen naturally if more people actually had to read/vote on all of the pardons. I'm not sure if this would be more successful with a shorter (i.e., more urgent) or longer (less taxing) time-window, but I think something should be done. Thoughts?

So as of now, from what I understand, every staff who abstains from voting is then counted as a 'no' to the pardon after the 7-day mark and the user must wait the required 6 month period before pardoning?

 

[Superfluous]

Honestly, although it shouldn't happen, I think mandatory votes on every pardon would see more follow-the-crowd votes. Although is that a non-issue since most Globals vote on them in the second stage more thoughtfully any way?

Well if nothing else, I suppose that helps get them taken care of faster.

So as of now, from what I understand, every staff who abstains from voting is then counted as a 'no' to the pardon after the 7-day mark and the user must wait the required 6 month period before pardoning?

Anything but an explicit "yes/support" vote is effectively a no vote

 

[SuF]

Well if nothing else, I suppose that helps get them taken care of faster.


Anything but an explicit "yes/support" vote is effectively a no vote

Well really you can either vote yes or not vote at all since the amount of no votes is meaningless.

 

[Apith]

http://www.sythe.org/suggestions/1810551-changes-high-pardon-system.html

 

Honestly, although it shouldn't happen, I think mandatory votes on every pardon would see more follow-the-crowd votes. Although is that a non-issue since most Globals vote on them in the second stage more thoughtfully any way?

Thoughts on pardon posts contributing towards modscore?

 

[Show Off]

Well if nothing else, I suppose that helps get them taken care of faster.


Anything but an explicit "yes/support" vote is effectively a no vote

Well really you can either vote yes or not vote at all since the amount of no votes is meaningless.

Thanks for helping clear that up.

 

Thoughts on pardon posts contributing towards modscore?

Modscore for saying one word? Eh... Wouldn't that take away from the duties that are considered vital? Even if you make votes mandatory, it would come out to the same result. The best we can do is extend the first process honestly.

If you think about it, the system was never the issue, it was those who control it. The unwillingness to show leniency from upper staff is the problem. Just take me for example. One more no vote from the second stage and I would still be banned, and for what? It's ridiculous. It's like they forget that the whole point of a pardon is to determine whether or not x would become a hindrance if they are to return.

 

Modscore for saying one word? Eh... Wouldn't that take away from the duties that are considered vital? Even if you make votes mandatory, it would come out to the same result. The best we can do is extend the first process honestly.

If you think about it, the system was never the issue, it was those who control it. The unwillingness to show leniency from upper staff is the problem. Just take me for example. One more no vote from the second stage and I would still be banned, and for what? It's ridiculous.

One or potentially two point(s) per post isn't a ludicrous amount that would detract from the pressing work especially when there's considerably more to a pardon than just writing support. The sometimes lengthy OP must be read, the essentials must be checked, a search for anything missing plus identifying if there are any unpaid debts that need to be rectified & whom the recipients of the payment should be are all needed to be looked at prior to voting.

We all know there's instances where mods have simply said "fuck it" and have posted without proper research, even being an advocate for more time spent on pardons and stressing repayments prior to pardons being considered I've fallen victim to that trap in being lazy. In the times this occurred I limited it to where I'd seen certain mods who I know I can count on to have done a thorough search majority of the time such as video. I digress however.

It's a catch 22, however it's decided to get staff to pay more attention to pardons comes with the positive of obviously having more votes obtained but the quality of the investigations decreasing. As a moderator there is only a certain amount of time you want to be spending each day on sythe, it's something to do in your spare time as a duty to the site and it's community rather than an actual job. With the current system in place to measure activity in place as modscore, sifting through pardons can feel like a lot of work for little reward at times. While modscore is far from important it's the only metric in place for measurement of performance and despite majority of staff saying they don't care about it we all secretly do like looking at the numbers and seeing how we're doing in comparison to our peers. While we may have put in a lot more work than others each fortnight by having done a tonne of work in the pardon section, none of that would be reflected in modscore. Simply put, the opportunity cost of the time spent on pardons could net you much more mod score elsewhere. The modscore system is far from perfect but it is the system in place so all the necessary staff duties should be reflected.

 

[video]

Like Suf pointed out, a vote of "no support" does absolutely nothing for the pardon. I'm not saying it should, but there have been pardons where I've taken a look and decided not to post simply because all I'd be saying is "no support".

I think something we should consider is doing away with the 7-day time limit and have a simple "your pardon is approved at 5 supports and denied at 5 no-supports" This would mean that mods would have to post "no support" instead of just ignoring the pardon and there would be no further complaints about pardons being ignored/denied simply for mod inactivity

 

[tMoon]

I did not see Blade's thread, my bad. Totally feel free to merge them.

I think something we should consider is doing away with the 7-day time limit and have a simple "your pardon is approved at 5 supports and denied at 5 no-supports" This would mean that mods would have to post "no support" instead of just ignoring the pardon and there would be no further complaints about pardons being ignored/denied simply for mod inactivity

Would 100% support this, people would no longer just be denied out of lack-of-input.

In regards to a pardon team, a better move would be to have pardons included in mod score. By current standards there is pretty much 0 incentive to participate in pardons asides from "it being expected" and someone having to kick up a fuss if they aren't getting looked at.

I had considered mod score, but I know the suggestion has gotten shot down in the past.

Would totally support mod score for pardons. If you need to hit your score amount and it's the end of the month, it's likely you'll up for scam reports over pardons.

Honestly, although it shouldn't happen, I think mandatory votes on every pardon would see more follow-the-crowd votes. Although is that a non-issue since most Globals vote on them in the second stage more thoughtfully any way?

While Globals may vote more thoughtfully in the second stage, if individuals follow-the-crowd for no votes, it will never reach the second stage.

A combination of the removal of the 7 day window in addition to mod score could help improve activity.

I think everyone deserves a second chance. However, recidivism should not be pardoned, in my opinion.

Individuals whom have scammed throughout their entirety of their time online/ on Sythe do not have a place in the community (well, place-ish, but the forum banned option is never going to happen so that is irrelevant.)

- Sythe community is shrinking

You aren't considering the variables for that outcome. You always reiterated that this is a cheating forum for "kids". Maybe some of those kids who were once members grew up. The Sythe community has been "shrinking" for years. We should take that with a grain of salt because that never seems to be the case. In what way is the Sythe community dying? Are you talking about outside the market? Well you aren't considering a few things.

A) This is a market website first.

B) Saturation of topics.

C) A lot of topic subjects aren't favorable to everyone. The participant outcome may increase as more members are being pardoned, but not dramatically enough to show significant change. The whole "Sythe is dying" movement will show up again inevitably.

D) You can't force discussion.

- Many users could become valued users (providing they're given a second chance)

"Could"

Like I've said before. This is a market website first. Most people who are pardoned come back for the market. If they participate outside of it, cool, but it's not a given. We shouldn't risk bringing back the wrong people just so we can fill this arbitrary space of emptiness.

- While there is a pardon system in place, it can be improved upon.

You're trying to take away discretion of staff on pardons to favor who? Your friends? I'm all for change as long as we're being objective and sound here. Guarantees in a pardon? Am I looking at this right? Where are these scammers being held accountable for their actions?!

Please tell me who my "friends" are that I'm attempting to change an entire pardon system to bring back? If I supported a pardon for someone, I would make a post that I support that pardon. You're throwing around an accusation with absolutely no basis, originating off a post you read by Yousuckv2. It's annoying and inaccurate.

- Been banned for ages
- Arguably served their time

- Plenty of users are not "kids"
- Site activity as a whole has dropped
- Shrinking does not have to be limited to this moment in time
- I do not see what the site being market first has to do with anything? It's still shrinking

 

[Syed]

Honestly what I've always hated about the pardon system was the fact that it's moved to the staff lounge after sectionals vote. I see no reason for that, I can imagine the upper staff making erroneous decisions based on the facts provided rather than asking the user for more information, and then denying a pardon. I just feel like it's a waste of time and it allows the staff to make shitty decisions in private rather than face any scrutiny.

 

[Superfluous]

Like Suf pointed out, a vote of "no support" does absolutely nothing for the pardon. I'm not saying it should, but there have been pardons where I've taken a look and decided not to post simply because all I'd be saying is "no support".

I think something we should consider is doing away with the 7-day time limit and have a simple "your pardon is approved at 5 supports and denied at 5 no-supports" This would mean that mods would have to post "no support" instead of just ignoring the pardon and there would be no further complaints about pardons being ignored/denied simply for mod inactivity

Support.

Honestly what I've always hated about the pardon system was the fact that it's moved to the staff lounge after sectionals vote. I see no reason for that, I can imagine the upper staff making erroneous decisions based on the facts provided rather than asking the user for more information, and then denying a pardon. I just feel like it's a waste of time and it allows the staff to make shitty decisions in private rather than face any scrutiny.

Support.

 

Remove the massive ego's in our system and problem fixed. Admins and staff act like sythe is their personal grudge match against others they dont like. Denying them access is their only weapon and power so of course they use it.

Example: Were keeping large sections of active players from our community for laughing and sharing pics of a admin. They didnt use black hat or post links on sythe. The users in questions shared a ******** link in given to them on skype. Not only are you keeping them banned but you expect repayment. Utter fucking joke in my opinion considering people dumb enough to post nudes online deserve to be laughed at. Wake up and realize this isnt the school playground. 10-20 members eliminated from sythe and forced to vade. Instead of viewing their vading as a lack of character. Why not consider it resolve and praise the fact that they want to be apart of our community

 

[SuF]

Honestly what I've always hated about the pardon system was the fact that it's moved to the staff lounge after sectionals vote. I see no reason for that, I can imagine the upper staff making erroneous decisions based on the facts provided rather than asking the user for more information, and then denying a pardon. I just feel like it's a waste of time and it allows the staff to make shitty decisions in private rather than face any scrutiny.

I believe upper lounge voting really does need to stay where it is. The upper staff needs to be able to make a decision for any reason without having to deal with bitching groupies.