[POLL] CDT/PR/TC - Usergroup colours/markups

[Program]

- The majority of new users will automatically assume coloured rank = staff. (Before you use PowerBot as an example, please actually look at other gaming/trading forums, and look at what has been done historically, and what still stands)

Where is the evidence of this? You've yet to produce a single example, but I can think of numerous counterexamples. So currently I'd say this is 100% false.

- Looks aesthetically ridiculous, with half the user-base having different coloured names

I've heard the opposite said of the change, that it makes the site look better and less aged. Opinion based "reason." I think it looks better.

- Usercolour ranks/titles should be staff only, and should remain as one of the few perks that only they are entitled to

"Should," why? According to you? Why do you decide what should and shouldn't be done. What "benefit" does that serve to say that staff should solely maintain all their perks. "Few" is a understatement, their perks are numerous. And "entitled" is a strong word when they are donating time of their own free will....just the like the user-groups :thinking.

- Community teams already have their own identifying minirank AND funrank (what more do you need that states what you're involved in)

K, staff already have funranks to show that they are staff, what more do they need? Same as OMM.

- As mentioned by other community team involved members and leaders, said teams are already receiving half-arsed applications, purely so users can be eligible for the over-the-top perks

That's part of the upside imo. Now maybe these groups will actually have enough members to actually push projects through! Yeah, they come for the wrong reasons, but then we can filter and boot people who aren't contributing. If they scam, then that means they would've scammed anyway...so no loss there. Why would someone trust someone just because of a color? You may argue people are stupid, but if they're truly that stupid then they would've got taken advantage of by someone else anyway.


Seriously not even trying to be a dick, but do you actually consider those to be legitimate reasons? I can't decide if that means I should just stop bothering to try anymore or to try harder if people are basing their decisions on things like what you wrote.

Should definitely give feedback to my rebuttals because I feel like I haven't got a response on any of this on all these pages. Genuinely curious to get to the root and see if there's something there that makes sense to me too.

 

[Program]

No doubt any new user who ventures to this forum is going to automatically assume that these community team/members are interchangeable with staff members, if not actual staff members. The fact that these team names are professional in nature, just adds to the facade of them being staff relevant. I've been on forums where PR/CD are staff roles, albeit more marketing centric, but staff nonetheless.

You can't tell me people wont assume these users are not staff...

Yeah, when I see "Banned" color I assume they are staff because they are lined up next to other groups. Sec, about to give this "banned" staff guy $1k.

But yeah, that's a separate issue from this entirely, that needs some editing so it doesnt say banned people and user-groups are forum leaders.

 

[S]

Where is the evidence of this? You've yet to produce a single example, but I can think of numerous counterexamples. So currently I'd say this is 100% false.

Evidence is literally CURRENT users getting confused at first. What on earth do you think new users will assume?

I've heard the opposite said of the change, that it makes the site look better and less aged. Opinion based "reason." I think it looks better.

You've heard the opposite? Then why is literally no one saying so, aside yourself? At least everything I'm saying is being validated by other users.

K, staff already have funranks to show that they are staff, what more do they need? Same as OMM.

Not sure if you're trolling. Staff have a presence of authority, are the helm of this forum, are looked to for assistance, are arbitrators of this forum, resolve reports, pardons, are privy to sensitive information, etc etc. I've got no idea how you've even comparing a staff member to that of a community team member.

That's part of the upside imo. Now maybe these groups will actually have enough members to actually push projects through! Yeah, they come for the wrong reasons, but then we can filter and boot people who aren't contributing. If they scam, then that means they would've scammed anyway...so no loss there. Why would someone trust someone just because of a color? You may argue people are stupid, but if they're truly that stupid then they would've got taken advantage of by someone else anyway.

Honestly dude, you haven't been on this forum when we had similar concepts such as User Educators, Community Assistants, and much much more. Literally the same concept as community teams with fun ranks and perks. Once ranks were introduced, every single person and their dog flocked to get in said teams, and the end result was; a huge drop in quality of content from what those teams were meant to produce, alongside many of those members using their ranks to scam - you can't say if they're going to scam, they will scam, because this GIVES them an actual platform do do it from.

All of us here aren't your enemy. We've seen all this come and go, and seen the exact same end result occur on a loop.

 

[Program]

Evidence is literally CURRENT users getting confused at first. What on earth do you think new users will assume?

Current users are the only group that would get confused as they've known how it was, but it's pretty obvious after investigating for more than 1.5 seconds. New users would see the system for what it is because they know to find out. People don't go to Osbot and say "hey this guy has a color, here's $1k."

You've heard the opposite? Then why is literally no one saying so, aside yourself? At least everything I'm saying is being validated by other users.

And I've only heard you say you dislike it. And it's a moot point anyway because colors have always been a thing on Sythe, this doesn't change anything there. So either way it'll "look bad."

Not sure if you're trolling. Staff have a presence of authority, are the helm of this forum, are looked to for assistance, are arbitrators of this forum, resolve reports, pardons, are privy to sensitive information, etc etc. I've got no idea how you've even comparing a staff member to that of a community team member.

Didn't compare, I addressed your argument. You said why do they need colors. And I'm wondering why staff "need" colors, they don't, that's why. But it serves to BETTER separate them from the masses. Same for user-groups.

Honestly dude, you haven't been on this forum when we had similar concepts such as User Educators, Community Assistants, and much much more. Literally the same concept as above. Once ranks were introduced, every single person and their dog flocked to get in said teams, and the end result was; a huge drop in quality of content from what those teams were meant to produce, most of the members using their ranks to scam - you can't say if they're going to scam, they will scam, because this gives them an actual platform do do it from.

Again, people will scam regardless of whether their name on Sythe is pink or white so it's a moot point. Sythe is the platform for scamming.


Also you managed to address only the points you had a rebuttal for.

 

[S]

Also you managed to address only the points you had a rebuttal for.

I responded to all your points. The staff one you stated (that I didn't quote) - it's blatantly obvious that it's not only me who believes it. Like jesus christ, are you delusional? The vote literally shows how people feel/want.

Not everyone is going to post they agree, but it's quite obvious what the general sentiment is.

I'm done debating things with you, as you refuse to want to accept what the general notion is, and refuse to, or fail to understand simple concepts, and lastly, are blinded by your view of thinking we're all biased.

 

[Program]

I responded to all your points. The staff one you stated (that I didn't quote), is blatantly obvious that it's not only me who believes it. Like jesus christ, are you delusional? The vote literally shows how people feel/want.

Not everyone is going to post they agree, but it's quite obvious what the general sentiment is.

I'm done debating things with you, as you refuse to want to accept what the general notion is, and refuse to, or fail to understand simple concepts, and lastly, are blinded by your view of thinking we're all biased.

Aye there it is, you cant refute anything logically so you deflect and resort to personal attack. Classic.

But sounds good buddy, I got to the root and am satisfied that I understand where you're coming from, no need to butt heads any longer.

 

[S]

Aye there it is, you cant refute anything logically so you deflect and resort to personal attack. Classic.

But sounds good buddy, I got to the root and am satisfied that I understand where you're coming from, no need to butt heads any longer.

Refuted everything you said, just like everyone else did within this thread. You're just unwilling to accept our reasoning, because you believe it's not relevant or warranted, and thus see each of our responses as not being 'adequate' answers.

Anyway, let's see how the poll plays out.

 

[Program]

Refuted everything you said, just like everyone else did within this thread. You're just unwilling to accept our reasoning, because you believe it's not relevant or warranted, and thus see each of our responses as not being 'adequate' answers.

Anyway, let's see how the poll plays out.

Refuted literally nothing.

Just said your way of thinking was "obvious" because you have no argument and I was delusional and skipped to saying that you're done arguing.

AKA deflect -> attack -> quit.

I think the poll has played out. Let's see what happens after.

 

Honestly this situation is not a big deal to me, if I lose my color whoopdie do, but I feel like the reasoning people are giving for not don't make sense and originate from a sense of jealousy and not wanting people to get things in a different way than they did.

I'm not understanding what's wrong with spicing up the forum and trying different things to mix it up. Seems like people are trying to kill every fun idea anyone has. Wish people would stop being Debbie Downers on every little thing because in reality this is a very small change if you take a step back and just serves to encourage us in the groups to work harder and those outside to be more inclined to join. Then there's more of us to have a good time. Not seeing how this is a bad thing when the main concern is that staff should maintain exclusivity for every perk ever, there's only so much a forum can offer users and I really don't see the harm in a temporary color.

Also this poll was begun on a strong bias, Sellerman claimed that the promotion thread was full of discontent with this edit and not much support, but I went and counted the posts and the number of people who supported outnumbered those who didn't by a good number. The icon is a thumbs down on the concept. Also it's being exaggerated as taking away a lot of the staff specific perks, when in reality it's one small perk that's pretty much shared by the entire community. With UI's everyone is allowed a colored name, but that's not stealing a staff perk? If not, then there's a quick solution, force all the groups to use a UI in the color and then there'll be no real difference between us and a regular user.

tl;dr My issue is people taking the fun out of everything for the wrong reasons or no reason at all and making this out to be something it isn't.

I didn't reply to this post because you completely glossed over what I said then pointed towards poll bias and said 'i'm tired of people sucking the fun out of everything!', but I will since you're calling people out for not wanting to argue in circles on a feedback thread.


I agree with you 100% as far as feeling like people love to suck the fun out of things. I have been advocating for expansion, growth, a shift of focus away for RS for the future's sake of the site, etc, for years. I challenge you to find me an instance where I shut down a logical suggestion that was made in efforts to increase activity or interest in the forum. I am getting a little tired of being lumped into this "anti-change oldfag" usergroup that we supposedly have running rampant around the site. We aren't 'mixing' anything up by doing this, we're lumping another reward onto the teams that already had rewards for no reason. We're eating our desert before dinner here. Let's see some solid growth and progress with these teams, let's hold the same leaders for a few months on end, let's see some projects followed through start to finish, THEN provide additional rewards once these teams really have the wheels moving to keep motivations high. If we award these colored names now, what is left as a reward for doing good work in the future to come?

We've already "been there done that" with teams that have ranks / icons / lounges / additional perks in attempts to foster activity and interest in said teams, only to fall short and scrap the teams entirely (I'm looking at you OGV/UE/CA/ CDT before it was 'revived' by Jack / roary). First we gave the CDT miniranks to have them stand out and be unique among the community. Then someone added a fun-rank to the 'CDT-Leader' position. Following this change we incorporated fun-ranks for ALL team members. Throughout all of these changes I would argue that member turnover increased, while interest, activity and community involvement in all that these teams do has declined. Why would adding another large, previously staff-identifying perk be any different? The usergroup colors on Discord were created so these said groups could have private areas to chat with eachother after migrating from Skype group chats. What purpose do colored names on the site serve? Will we soon be adding colors for DNT / TWC / Verifier usergroups as well?

I went ahead and bolded and underlined all of the parts of this quote that you glossed over, or haven't touched on yet.

 

I'm all for reverting the change. Shin's not stupid and knew this would kick off, and knew the new groups that have had a taste of colour would flock in favour of the change, because why the fuck wouldn't they?

The only point I thought made sense was to make the groups more recognisable on Sythe, but to be honest with you i'm not hugely active and even i'm aware of them and I couldn't tell you who the fuckin' staff team consists of at this moment in time.

There's a really good point in this thread about these groups becoming a sort of 'premium club', and people do use these platforms to scam from. UE was a fucking mess, full of cunts and infested with scamming pricks. Fun Ranks are great bait for scammers to reveal themselves earlier. Coloured names I bet look even more tempting.

Yeah, when I see "Banned" color I assume they are staff because they are lined up next to other groups. Sec, about to give this "banned" staff guy $1k.

But yeah, that's a separate issue from this entirely, that needs some editing so it doesnt say banned people and user-groups are forum leaders.

 

[Program]

I didn't reply to this post because you completely glossed over what I said then pointed towards poll bias and said 'i'm tired of people sucking the fun out of everything!', but I will since you're calling people out for not wanting to argue in circles on a feedback thread.


I agree with you 100% as far as feeling like people love to suck the fun out of things. I have been advocating for expansion, growth, a shift of focus away for RS for the future's sake of the site, etc, for years. I challenge you to find me an instance where I shut down a logical suggestion that was made in efforts to increase activity or interest in the forum. I am getting a little tired of being lumped into this "anti-change oldfag" usergroup that we supposedly have running rampant around the site. We aren't 'mixing' anything up by doing this, we're lumping another reward onto the teams that already had rewards for no reason. We're eating our desert before dinner here. Let's see some solid growth and progress with these teams, let's hold the same leaders for a few months on end, let's see some projects followed through start to finish, THEN provide additional rewards once these teams really have the wheels moving to keep motivations high. If we award these colored names now, what is left as a reward for doing good work in the future to come?



I went ahead and bolded and underlined all of the parts of this quote that you glossed over, or haven't touched on yet.

People taking offense like I'm pointing the finger straight up their nose lol. I generalize, but don't take that to mean that I think every individual in these groups is guilty of anything. While you also nearly directly accused me of the same thing you're griping about. "The most vocal is the group benefitting." Like I'm only arguing to keep a silly color idc about, and I think I can take that directly since I'm the only one on here "benefitting" that's posted more than once. So I find you taking offense of getting lumped hypocritical when you nearly directly accuse me of something. Anyway, the most vocal group being the ones benefitting is false as I showed earlier, 3-4 ppl on here were benefitting including me and like 13 were staff and like 7 others. I think the most vocal are those who currently or had benefitted by the old system.

As far as why would it be different? No one said it would be, but it might and there's no solid reason not to implement the change that I can see except offending butt hurt staff or ex-staff. Not necessarily including you or anyone in that.

And there's been no arguing in circles, I refuted these opinion based arguments and then received no rebuttals until finally Sellerman attempted to have a real discussion and that ended how we saw.

 

[tMoon]

My personal opinion is that the users look like staff and I have outlined what I think should be done to account for it and I also think anyone directly impacted by this decision should abstain from trying to influence decisions (looking at the teams here).

To give a perspective on how the roles look: I returned to the forum and actually thought the community teams had been promoted to a higher level and I have been on Sythe for over a decade; I can only imagine what a new user would perceive.

Threads like this are great to build community sentiment, but the only way anything is going to be done in a timely manner is if an upper staff member takes it upon themselves to hold a vote (whether upper or all).

 

[Pain]

My personal opinion is that the users look like staff and I have outlined what I think should be done to account for it and I also think anyone directly impacted by this decision should abstain from trying to influence decisions (looking at the teams here).

To give a perspective on how the roles look: I returned to the forum and actually thought the community teams had been promoted to a higher level and I have been on Sythe for over a decade; I can only imagine what a new user would perceive.

Threads like this are great to build community sentiment, but the only way anything is going to be done in a timely manner is if an upper staff member takes it upon themselves to hold a vote (whether upper or all).

Apparently one was held considering 3 upper admins have all commented whether on the promotions thread or this one.

That implies that the vote went in favor of having them, the fact shin said to make a community vote thread further implies that staff feel they should remain unless the community strongly feels otherwise, hence the thread.

 

[tMoon]

Apparently one was held considering 3 upper admins have all commented whether on the promotions thread or this one.

That implies that the vote went in favor of having them, the fact shin said to make a community vote thread further implies that staff feel they should remain.

Admins are part of upper staff, but that doesn't equivocate to other staff voting on the issue.

Nothing is implied, you're making assumptions because a forum change went through; plenty of changes have happened on Sythe solely at the administrative level. A community vote would help establish a community sentiment, but that does not imply staff members have already individually chimed in.

Either way, it's irrelevant. There is no point making implications or assumptions as it will not change the outcome. If staff has already voted on it and this is set-in-stone, just close the thread instead of having this thread go on aimlessly.

 

As far as Matt goes, he was the first not to give his opinion in a civil way, he came purely to attempt to call me out and not to contribute anything constructive, so I responded in kind.

Excuse me but that's not true. I came on this thread to give my opinion in a civil way, without attacking anyone. Here you go.

This. Doesn't matter to me if we change it or not - since I'm no longer using Sythe actively. However, I find this very confusing for the users. I seriously thought you guys were all promoted to mod lol A rank should be enough for these groups, imo. This was on the do not suggest list for good reasons.

Now, attacking and defending is not the same thing. You attacked us by saying everyone here was biased and our opinion did not matter - so I decided to post again and defend the people who took the time to write their opinion on this thread. Maybe I was more rude than usual, but that's because I want you to realize that the way you're acting right now is not acceptable. You're not accepting opinions that are opposite from yours - and it seems like nothing will change your mind. You're calling everyone biased, when in reality, your perk is the subject of the vote. Don't get me wrong, you're free to give your opinion and you made some points that I would agree with, sure. However, refusing to listen to whoever has a different opinion simply isn't the solution.

So hypocritical, sitting there all butthurt that I think some people may have ulterior motives on all sides and turn around and say that I'm just trying to keep a color perk. I don't get what's with you guys lmao, it's a fking color. Think I care if I keep it or not? Take it away, couldn't care less for myself personally. I don't gain anything from having the color or not. Literally, take mine specifically away I don't mind. God you're a idiotic tool.

So much speculation there it's mental. Don't care to be right or wrong on this specific case. My issue is on principle it seems like many here are biased and also many are just "fun-blocking" every idea people have on Sythe under a guise of good reasons, but when pressed for the reasoning they seem to evaporate. Debbie Downers on here and I think that's a big reason Sythe doesn't attract more users. Everyone wants to kill any and every idea and change in its crib. If you read a page or two back I elaborated that this was my real issue. I feel like this color change was a small edit that livened up the place and encouraged participation between members of the community a bit and all I hear is bs about how a colored name is sacred, a fking color lmao.

Now, to address this post. Don't you see my reasoning as to why I thought you were just trying to keep the perk? You're literally attacking anyone and everyone that has a different opinion. You're saying that it's just a simple color, and you couldn't care less if we would remove it.. Yet, you're on this thread 24/7 replying to everyone in a negative way. Thanks for calling me an idiotic tool btw.

We don't want to kill changes, we just want to see the right changes - the ones that make sense. If for you, that is adding a color to the username, fair enough. However, for the majority of us, it's not (and we clearly explained why).

To your point of wanting non-rank people to post... the reason why you don't see that often is because the active community does not consist of newcomers with no ranks - for obvious reasons. Also, when I was new on Sythe, I was not feeling comfortable posting an opinion that contradicts the mod's decisions. I was voting on the polls, but did not post. Not because I did not have an opinion and did not care, but because it's scary when you're new and you're already fighting the system. That's why they don't post and you need to value the votes on the poll.

I don't want you to change your opinion. I want you to think about the way you're acting. That's all.

 

[Program]

Excuse me but that's not true. I came on this thread to give my opinion in a civil way, without attacking anyone. Here you go.

You quoted a totally irrelevant previous post you made. You did come back and make a post purely to call me out that offered nothing constructive or at least that's how I interpreted your post, but maybe not, you obviously either misunderstood some of my posts or purposely misconstrued them so who can say if you meant it in the way I took it. That's what I was talking about.

Now, attacking and defending is not the same thing. You attacked us by saying everyone here was biased and our opinion did not matter - so I decided to post again and defend the people who took the time to write their opinion on this thread. Maybe I was more rude than usual, but that's because I want you to realize that the way you're acting right now is not acceptable. You're not accepting opinions that are opposite from yours - and it seems like nothing will change your mind. You're calling everyone biased, when in reality, your perk is the subject of the vote. Don't get me wrong, you're free to give your opinion and you made some points that I would agree with, sure. However, refusing to listen to whoever has a different opinion simply isn't the solution.

It's attacking to say that the vast majority of the people posting here belong to groups that could easily be accused of bias, including myself? Not sure in what world that makes sense. I agree that I'm not accepting OPINIONS as a argument from people. Hit me with solid reasons like, "people paid for UI's with money expecting it to be exclusive to them" like Nate did with his "no UI" argument and I'll be happy to say I agree. Does that make sense? I've been asking and asking for a non-OPINION based argument as to why not add this update and to me, extrapolating that out to the wider issue of other "fun updates" that people won't let through. But no one comes up with anything but their opinion, which is fine to some extent, but shouldn't opinions be grounded in sound logic and reasoning?

So again, I've been listening and have been open to being swayed either way this entire time, and I feel as if it's taking liberties to say otherwise.

Now, to address this post. Don't you see my reasoning as to why I thought you were just trying to keep the perk? You're literally attacking anyone and everyone that has a different opinion. You're saying that it's just a simple color, and you couldn't care less if we would remove it.. Yet, you're on this thread 24/7 replying to everyone in a negative way. Thanks for calling me an idiotic tool btw.

Totally I see it how you can generalize and say that a user-group may be biased to want to keep their perk, which I'd be included in, but to name someone and come on specifically to call them out and offer nothing constructive I don't see personally, but w/e. I'm not on this thread 24/7 btw, I'm a CS major so I'm on my computer 24/7 doing homework and get fancy red alerts that bug me to leave alone. I respond to every thread that someone directly addresses me quickly. Which I'm not sure I've made a post in quite a while where someone didn't specifically address me, if they don't want a response from me, then don't respond to me.

To your point of wanting non-rank people to post... the reason why you don't see that often is because the active community does not consist of newcomers with no ranks - for obvious reasons. Also, when I was new on Sythe, I was not feeling comfortable posting an opinion that contradicts the mod's decisions. I was voting on the polls, but did not post. Not because I did not have an opinion and did not care, but because it's scary when you're new and you're already fighting the system. That's why they don't post and you need to value the votes on the poll.

Makes sense. Idc about the poll either way though for reasons I think I've elaborated on repeatedly. And just because a certain group is active doesn't mean I'm not curious what others have to say on the topic? That's all I said, is I wanted to hear from others.

I don't want you to change your opinion. I want you to think about the way you're acting. That's all.

I've tried to phrase things in such a way that they weren't meant to specifically be directed at anyone, and if you interpret that as "acting" in a negative light then that's a bummer and wasn't the intention. I think many have admitted that "fun-killing" is a commonplace thing that's been going on for a while and this just struck me as the most ridiculous example yet over something as trivial as a color and no one can give me a solid reason behind their position against it.



So once again, it's not the color that I care about or that irks me, it's the fact that it's such a ridiculous example of attempting to block an update for seemingly no reason not grounded in flaky opinions.

Sometimes a great idea comes up and old staff member or anyone else will come in and say "hey, that just straight won't work and here's why:" and they will give some irrefutable reasoning and that's great. But I've yet to see anything resembling solid reasoning so far.

And if you're in the minority and want to see change happening while the majority would see it stagnate, then there's nothing better to do than try to convince or be convinced.

 

Give me a colored username and I swear to god I'll scam. Try me.

 

[Grave]

I like being a different color but yeah it should probably be reverted.

(edit) Sellerman don't you ever fucking PM me again btw

 

[Vlad]

Imo I can deal with the coloured usernames but they probably shouldn't be bolded as well

 

[S]

@Sythe are you still wanting to wait a few more weeks for the poll to play out?