My Guide Sale Thread

[HamJam]

I think you are going completely the wrong direction on this. Increasing regulation is not the answer here. Unless it can be proved that a guide is ripped, then it should be sellable. Sure, it creates ways for certain users to abuse the system and sell other people's guides. But, it encourages the original seller to keep track of his sales and take control of his own destiny.

Once again, having your guide submitted for verification first does not show who actually discovered the method. It is really flawed if someone can leech a method of another player / person, and not only sell it, but also prohibit the creator of the method from selling it themselves.

The person who gets the guide verified in most cases will be the original creator/inventor of the guide. Putting into real life perspective, if I just invented something new, I'd be running to the patent office like a headless chicken to get it patented to my name, so no-one else can steal it my idea. If the person who created the guide doesn't have the initiative to protect his guide by verification, then he has only himself to blame.

If I'd invented/created a guide and didn't want anyone else to know, I wouldn't be trying to use it in public and if I was, I'd be sure to get it verified before. Common sense goes along way, both in real life and on the internet.

 

[FireZ]

You can never prove who the original owner is so that argument goes out the window though.

 

[HamJam]

You can never prove who the original owner is so that argument goes out the window though.

Not sure who that is directed at, although if it is at my one then that is what my point is. Person who gets it verified first has rights to it, no more complications. Most people say they are the original owners;
"Omg he stole my guide I made last night", if he was too dim witted to not ask for a verification or was too dumb to tell other people, then he has only himself to blame and his stupidity.

Life is about survival and competition, where initiative is going to save you or pave your path. If you're too slow to realise something before it gets snatched away from you, then you can only blame your ignorance. If anything you'll learn from your mistakes.

 

[goku usa]

Well put HamJam.

Since there is no way of knowing who thought of the guide first, the one to get it verified first should be considered the creator. And as per rules, same or similar guides are not allowed to be sold.

 

[cosrob97]

Slightly off-topic but is this the guide we're talking about?

http://www.powerbot.org/vb/showthread.php?t=525874&page=1
http://ww2.sythe.org/showthread.php?p=7526616
http://pastebin.com/jHWz9paU

They all fit the description perfectly and allows you to xfer 100m an hour.

 

[HamJam]

No Cosrob, it's a slight variation of that guide. The "mechanics" are different.

 

[cosrob97]

Then I don't see why this was ever a problem.

 

[SuF]

Not sure who that is directed at, although if it is at my one then that is what my point is. Person who gets it verified first has rights to it, no more complications. Most people say they are the original owners;
"Omg he stole my guide I made last night", if he was too dim witted to not ask for a verification or was too dumb to tell other people, then he has only himself to blame and his stupidity.

Life is about survival and competition, where initiative is going to save you or pave your path. If you're too slow to realise something before it gets snatched away from you, then you can only blame your ignorance. If anything you'll learn from your mistakes.

Why should only one person be allowed to sell a guide that explains the same process? Two different guides may be VERY different. One might be a piece of shit with 5 lines that outlines the method briefly. The other could be a 10 page document with pictures and through explanation that the guide that was verified first does not give. Competition not only drives prices down but it drives quality up, both of which are good for the members.

 

[Suicide Commando]

Why should only one person be allowed to sell a guide that explains the same process? Two different guides may be VERY different. One might be a piece of shit with 5 lines that outlines the method briefly. The other could be a 10 page document with pictures and through explanation that the guide that was verified first does not give. Competition not only drives prices down but it drives quality up, both of which are good for the members.

agreed.

you can have the same story written by two different people but the story could be completely different from another perspective.

although, the first to patent an invention gets rights to the idea. something to think about

 

[HamJam]

Then I don't see why this was ever a problem.

It was a fault on the Verifiers side - http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=7779205&postcount=9

There was miscommunication between to verifiers, namely HHN and Greg. Viou's guide should have been verified by Greg rather then HHN blindly verifying it on Viou's proof that Greg said it was all good it go.

This was a once off sort of thing, up to that point things were going good and if the checking of R2's guide was done the same way as every other guide that is verified, then we wouldn't be talking here.

Why should only one person be allowed to sell a guide that explains the same process? Two different guides may be VERY different. One might be a piece of shit with 5 lines that outlines the method briefly. The other could be a 10 page document with pictures and through explanation that the guide that was verified first does not give. Competition not only drives prices down but it drives quality up, both of which are good for the members.

If the verifier could understand how to do the guide in 5 lines and it works, then I don't understand why someone needs 10 pages to explain it.


If the 2 guides (example) are based upon the same mechanics what the hell is the point in have 2 different sellers to sell it?
The first person to notice that money can be made and he takes the initiative to sell it then he should by all means have the right to sell it and only him.

That's like saying someone buys a guide from person A, he then notices that he can probably sell it for less by dabbling a free dollars off its price. He simply changes a few words, adds a few pictures and bam! Voila!
You're just about to make yourself more money then the original seller of the guide. Is that really fair?

To put it into a real life perspective; you go to buy a Bluray movie for $30. You then have equipment at home to copy that disc onto several other discs and mass sell them for $10 each. That's not only pirating and illegal but completely unethical.

Shits going to get complicated if we allow 3 or 4 people to sell the same method but different wording to describe it. People will be accusing one another all day long.

If anything the system you are suggesting is asking to be abused. It reminds me of the days when you had 10 people selling the exact same guide. Then came the "Verified" section, to prevent people selling duplicate methods... did that work? No, because you got the same ole'
"Prove that I bought it off him" response.

What's the point letting guide rippers and ban evaders purchasing these guides off Sythe via MSN privately then changing the words around, changing their msn around and selling it like it was their own?

By doing what you are saying is like turning the guide section into a cesspool of vaders and guide rippers. They'll just keep going back and try to sell the same guide with different wording, all going around in a never ending circle of shit.

I don't understand why we are taking a step backwards, if you want to do it this way, then completely abolish the "Verified" guide section instead of 20 people selling the same method with different wording. It pisses me off so much that other people are making a quick buck out of plagiarism.

although, the first to patent an invention gets rights to the idea. something to think about

This is what I've been saying all day. If you have the initiative to get your guide verified first then you, and only you have the right to sell it. If the first person to invent the guide wasn't quick enough to realise that he could make some money out of it, he has only himself to blame.

 

[cosrob97]

Sorry to be off-topic again HamJam, but there have been a number of cases where users have slightly altered the guide and resold it. Whcih all these guides have been verified (I know because I just went through the leaked pages).

Smuggling dung for example:

http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=853068
http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=853541
http://sythe.org/showthread.php?p=6661992

50m per hour xfer:

http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=851353
http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=857119

CC xfer method:

http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=853674
http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=856102
http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=856230
http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=857408


All these guides have been verified, all these guides are nearly exactly the same, but the difference is they wrote it in different words. So no, guide verifiers aren't really stopping 3-4 people adding a sentence then re-selling it.

 

[HamJam]

Yes Cosrob, that's what R2 was talking about. He said that in the past people would be selling the same guide as him but with different words.

I believe we should not allow the sale of any guide that already exists in the Verified section. If it mechanically the same, as in the way it works is similar to a guide already verified then it shouldn't be allowed to be sold.

Taken from my proposal in the SL:

Article #2 - To completely eliminate duplicate methods. By this I mean; the mechanics by which the method works, regardless of how a person may write or explain it. If the mechanics of 2 guides (the way in which they work or process) are the same; then the person to get his/her verified first, regardless if they wrote it themselves or not, will have full rights to sell it. If they have taken the initiative to get it verified first, then they have the copywrite of the method itself.


I. To summarize the main points in this, basically if a guide has been verified and another individual wishes to get his/her guide verified as well and he/she believes that their guide is different because they have used different words to explain it. The simple answer to this to it is that only 1 person can have a guide in the verified section that uses the same mechanics, by this I mean in the way it produces money or the technique involved in doing the glitch.

II. Regardless if they have used different words, if the mechanics (the way it works in-game) are the same then the person to request their guide to be verified first will have FULL rights to sell it. The other individual will not be allowed to sell it even though they may have explained it in their own words. The mechanics of a guide are more important then the words used to describe it; if a guide verifier was able to understand how to use it then the person buying should be able, too.

And before you guys talk about competition etc. Please read my above posts ^ I think I've pretty much covered every point, if not all.

 

[SuF]

If the verifier could understand how to do the guide in 5 lines and it works, then I don't understand why someone needs 10 pages to explain it.

"Check Ipconfig for the DNS servers. Then use set a static IP using those."

That is my guide. Do you understand it? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I have made a guide that explains something with as little detail as possible. It is extremely easy to write a 5 sentence guide versus a 10 page guide (with pictures) that explain the same thing.

If the 2 guides (example) are based upon the same mechanics what the hell is the point in have 2 different sellers to sell it?

Already answered that quite extensively.

The first person to notice that money can be made and he takes the initiative to sell it then he should by all means have the right to sell it and only him.

What is your reasoning behind that?

That's like saying someone buys a guide from person A, he then notices that he can probably sell it for less by dabbling a free dollars off its price. He simply changes a few words, adds a few pictures and bam! Voila!
You're just about to make yourself more money then the original seller of the guide. Is that really fair?

Already addressed that too.

To put it into a real life perspective; you go to buy a Bluray movie for $30. You then have equipment at home to copy that disc onto several other discs and mass sell them for $10 each. That's not only pirating and illegal but completely unethical.

I understand what ripping is.

Shits going to get complicated if we allow 3 or 4 people to sell the same method but different wording to describe it. People will be accusing one another all day long.

Let them. Unless they can prove it, nothing will be done.

If anything the system you are suggesting is asking to be abused. It reminds me of the days when you had 10 people selling the exact same guide. Then came the "Verified" section, to prevent people selling duplicate methods... did that work? No, because you got the same ole'
"Prove that I bought it off him" response.

I will repeat myself for you. The responsibility, just like with scams, lies with the seller to catch rippers just like scammers.

I don't understand why we are taking a step backwards, if you want to do it this way, then completely abolish the "Verified" guide section instead of 20 people selling the same method with different wording. It pisses me off so much that other people are making a quick buck out of plagiarism.

I want to get rid of it entirely. It was removed once before due to the fact that it is impossible to manage.

 

[HamJam]

"Check Ipconfig for the DNS servers. Then use set a static IP using those."

That is my guide. Do you understand it? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I have made a guide that explains something with as little detail as possible. It is extremely easy to write a 5 sentence guide versus a 10 page guide (with pictures) that explain the same thing.

Article #1 - To clearly define what guides are to be verified and which are to reside in the Verified Guide Section.


I. Guides that are to be verified should be completely unique, they should not be found elsewhere on the Internet. Although, if other people happen to be using this method but have not got it verified, will not have the opportunity to re-sale the method. As that guide's method has been rightfully claimed by another individual who took the initiative to verify and make money from it. The other individuals can however still use it at their own discretion but NOT re-sell it.


II. To more clearly analysis guides in the way in which they operate. This means glitches, money making methods, unique skill levelling methods and RWT methods are to have a certain standard before they can be placed in the verified section.


III. This may include rulings such as they have to provide an extensive upper hand in game-play, for example - money making guides that don't make more than 500k an hour should not be placed in the Verified section. Although, they can be placed in the un-verified section and a note from a verifier that; this guide worked to a certain extent at the time it was asked to be verified but has not got potential to be issued a place in the verified section. However, this is at the guide verifiers discretion, he doesn't have to necessarily even verify the guide if it doesn't reach the potential of 500k an hour, though he may do it out of the kindness in his heart.

Let them. Unless they can prove it, nothing will be done.

By doing what you are saying is like turning the guide section into a cesspool of vaders and guide rippers. They'll just keep going back and try to sell the same guide with different wording, all going around in a never ending circle.

Let them. I will repeat myself for you. The responsibility, just like with scams, lies with the seller to catch rippers just like scammers.

So 3 people selling the same guide, how are you able to prove that he has your guide and you don't have his, vice versa? People will changing wording of guides, soon you'll have about 20 people selling the same damn guide with different wording and explanation for the exact same method regardless of which way they describe it.

It's going to turn into the same old "he stole my guide", "no I didn't" - bitch fight all over again. Why are we taking a step back rather then a step forward?

I want to get rid of it entirely. It was removed once before due to the fact that it is impossible to manage.

Xfer guides are out of the window, so to speak, it should make it 1000x easier to regulate the guide section with the rules that I have suggested in the "Guide Reform" thread, found in the SL. 3/4 of it can be found on this thread in some places.

If there's every any controversy it will be about -

"I invented this guide yesterday but someone verified it before me".

What is your reasoning behind that?

If you weren't smart enough to ask by yourself to get it verified, or didn't have the initiative to see the potential in your method, then you, as I have been saying all day, have yourself to blame. In most cases the inventor of the guide will get it verified first, however in the rare case that they haven't then that's their fault.

 

If you weren't smart enough to ask by yourself to get it verified, or didn't have the initiative to see the potential in your method, then you, as I have been saying all day, have yourself to blame. In most cases the inventor of the guide will get it verified first, however in the rare case that they haven't then that's their fault.

See, this is where you are completely wrong. A transfer method can be a moneymaker in many ways. You might set up a transferring service which uses it, you might start a gold shop. That transfer method is your means of income. Usually there is a ton more money to be made in keeping your method secret (and therefore keep it from being patched). Selling a few guides for $10 a pop does not compare much with being able to sell $1000 worth of GP everyday and mark it up by 30% because you are able to xfer it.

So the people who are earning honest money running a service here on Sythe with their transfer method are at extreme risk. If they don't "verify" a guide of it, they are completely at risk of someone buying from them, leeching their method, and then selling it under their name. In this case, someone is stealing another person's idea on our forums, and instead of being punished, they are then given a monopoly on this idea.

 

[Plznate]

See, this is where you are completely wrong. A transfer method can be a moneymaker in many ways. You might set up a transferring service which uses it, you might start a gold shop. That transfer method is your means of income. Usually there is a ton more money to be made in keeping your method secret (and therefore keep it from being patched). Selling a few guides for $10 a pop does not compare much with being able to sell $1000 worth of GP everyday and mark it up by 30% because you are able to xfer it.

So the people who are earning honest money running a service here on Sythe with their transfer method are at extreme risk. If they don't "verify" a guide of it, they are completely at risk of someone buying from them, leeching their method, and then selling it under their name. In this case, someone is stealing another person's idea on our forums, and instead of being punished, they are then given a monopoly on this idea.

Then why have you ever sold an xfer method?

 

[HamJam]

See, this is where you are completely wrong. A transfer method can be a moneymaker in many ways. You might set up a transferring service which uses it, you might start a gold shop. That transfer method is your means of income. Usually there is a ton more money to be made in keeping your method secret (and therefore keep it from being patched). Selling a few guides for $10 a pop does not compare much with being able to sell $1000 worth of GP everyday and mark it up by 30% because you are able to xfer it.

So the people who are earning honest money running a service here on Sythe with their transfer method are at extreme risk. If they don't "verify" a guide of it, they are completely at risk of someone buying from them, leeching their method, and then selling it under their name. In this case, someone is stealing another person's idea on our forums, and instead of being punished, they are then given a monopoly on this idea.

Verify it, don't sell it.

Problem solved.

 

Then why have you ever sold an xfer method?

I sell methods for several reasons. One of them being that the method has no use for me in my shop. Examples would be Trade Limit Xfer (Feb/March '10), Kegs (Feb '10). They are useful for individuals, so I sell them.

For this method I am selling now, I am sure Jagex will not be patching it. Free Trade is coming up, so I can use it in my shop and not be worried about it being fixed.

And to HamJam -> As much as Sythe mods are very trustworthy, etc., some people aren't going to want to reveal their guide to a verifier. From my understanding, any verifier on Sythe.org can see these guides. Do you think Aufzen is going to verify his instant xfer guide? No, because that guide is easily worth $1000+, even a week before Free Trade.

 

[HamJam]

And to HamJam -> As much as Sythe mods are very trustworthy, etc., some people aren't going to want to reveal their guide to a verifier. From my understanding, any verifier on Sythe.org can see these guides. Do you think Aufzen is going to verify his instant xfer guide? No, because that guide is easily worth $1000+, even a week before Free Trade.

If you'd prefer that leechers sell your guide then so be it. You are given the option to verify your guide and keep it or, leave yourself at risk.

From my understanding Tijn uses a similar method to Aufzen, either one of them could sell it now and make a quick buck if they wanted to. Depends who's got the business mind and initiative to do so... If I was in there position I'd be wanting to make every dollar I could for something that's going to be worthless in a matter of days.

 

[SuF]

By doing what you are saying is like turning the guide section into a cesspool of vaders and guide rippers. They'll just keep going back and try to sell the same guide with different wording, all going around in a never ending circle.

So 3 people selling the same guide, how are you able to prove that he has your guide and you don't have his, vice versa? People will changing wording of guides, soon you'll have about 20 people selling the same damn guide with different wording and explanation for the exact same method regardless of which way they describe it.

It's going to turn into the same old "he stole my guide", "no I didn't" - bitch fight all over again. Why are we taking a step back rather then a step forward?

Xfer guides are out of the window, so to speak, it should make it 1000x easier to regulate the guide section with the rules that I have suggested in the "Guide Reform" thread, found in the SL. 3/4 of it can be found on this thread in some places.

If there's every any controversy it will be about -

"I invented this guide yesterday but someone verified it before me".

If you weren't smart enough to ask by yourself to get it verified, or didn't have the initiative to see the potential in your method, then you, as I have been saying all day, have yourself to blame. In most cases the inventor of the guide will get it verified first, however in the rare case that they haven't then that's their fault.

How so? If someone buys a guide off of someone else and then sells the method they will be caught. If they are smart, then they will not be. It is just like ban evaders. Anyone smart can pull it off. Not to mention that people will still say that others have stolen their ideas, just like in this case. Giving people a monopoly does nothing but harm. It will negatively effect everyone buy the seller. It allows them to charge anything they want. It allows them to write shitty guides. It allows them to not even sell a method that many people know. It will end with secret methods getting leaks because others who know them will be unable to sell it because someone who does not want to sell it got their guide verified first. Monopolies are bad. Your logic is being flaws by your feelings about ripping. All you are doing now is repeating yourself and not going anywhere. A regulated guides forum does not work and never will work and most of the experienced staff now basically believe this to some extent and most completely believed it years ago when the section was removed in the first place. Honestly, I have no idea why it was even brought back.