#MeToo

The (incomplete) list of powerful men accused of sexual harassment after Harvey Weinstein - CNN
Kevin Spacey apologizes for alleged sex assault with a minor - CNN

So I am pretty sure you guys have all seen numerous stories on television about sexual allegations made against notorious people, latest being Kevin Spacey.

It goes without saying that these individuals are in the wrong, but in your opinion, do you believe ending someone's career because of a mistake made several years ago is a fair punishment? If so, explain why they deserve such fate. If not, explain what you base yourself on.

I'm going to give you an example that happened in my country to help you visualize what I just said.

A TV animator has his own company and has a contract through a very well known TV channel. He has been doing this for years and is one of the favorites of the public eye.

Suddently, with the advent of #MeeToo, his name pops up and he is accused of sexual allegations, made several years ago. He is forced to step down from the scene, naturally, and will later see his contract terminated. It even made that big of a wave that he was also forced to sell shares of his own company.

So, not only his image is forever damaged, but he also lost everything in a heartbeat.

Scene is yours.

 

[Xour]

Sexual harassment in the current state of times is over sensitive.

Kevin Spacey apologized for laying on someone while he was drunk at a party they were at together. The kid said “It occurred to me later on that he was trying to sexually advance.” Spacey barely recalls it but did the right thing by apologizing.

I haven’t read every countless accusation made against Weinstein because I gave up when they tallied a woman who said he made a pass on her in a hotel room. To me that means he might have said “Oh your butt looks nice in that,” or “Want to hook up?”

This, in my opinion, is not sexual harassment.

These celebrities wear provocative clothing, but then will get mad if you say something or look at the wrong part of their body. Average civilians behave in similar fashion.

Weinstein probably pissed off someone powerful in his industry and they’re shaming him in retaliation.

 

There's a stigma around openly admitting one has been a victim of sexual assault in any form. I don't blame anybody for keeping quiet about it, hell, I probably would too. Should you keep it quiet? Of course not, but I can imagine it'd be a difficult topic to bring up. I think the point of the hashtag is to encourage people to come forward, and not feel scared into silence.

Should an abuser have their life ruined? Well... no... They definitely deserve punished though. They inflicted physical and mental pain on another and for that they should go away for a long time. That said, completely tarnishing somebody's name can be a little extreme. People make mistakes, and you can only learn from them. However in this instance, it looks like repeated mistakes and perhaps what he's getting is justice.

I also noticed that your link only referred to powerful men being called out for sexual abuse. Women are just as guilty of this, and it's far worse (socially) to come forward as a man and say 'I got raped' (or what have you) than it is for a woman to do. There seems to be a 'men can't get raped lol' mentality and that's simply not the case.

Anyway yeah

 

[Buyacc]

In normal society its innocent until proven guilty. With these MeToo stuff it seems to work the other way around. As soon as someone posts whatever crap they want about you, you are pretty much condemned. No matter what you say or how obviously innocent you are, your carreer is already ruined.

I therefor dislike these kind of feminist outbursts that seemingly are there for the sole purpose of ruining as many men's lifes as possible.

 

[ilovegold69]

A very very small number of men do almost all of the sexual abuse in society, and it's pretty insulting for there to be a movement against rape, when the only men willing to sexually assault women are psychopaths. The movement against murder doesn't get enough attention though, because the perpetrators are the same socioeconomic class as the victims, and they're all privileged males.

The cynical part of me wants women to be more skeptical of whom they barely know, and not put themselves in a vulnerable position to be taken advantage of by said psychopaths. This at least makes more sense to me than punishing the whole class because the quiet kid in back brought a rifle to math.

 

They deserve what society brings them, as they did it to themselves. Is it really worth ruining someone's life over? Not particularly, but there are rewards and consequences for all of our actions. The price we pay for some things is far too great to be numerable.

 

[Shredderbeam]

The (incomplete) list of powerful men accused of sexual harassment after Harvey Weinstein - CNN
Kevin Spacey apologizes for alleged sex assault with a minor - CNN

So I am pretty sure you guys have all seen numerous stories on television about sexual allegations made against notorious people, latest being Kevin Spacey.

It goes without saying that these individuals are in the wrong, but in your opinion, do you believe ending someone's career because of a mistake made several years ago is a fair punishment? If so, explain why they deserve such fate. If not, explain what you base yourself on.

I think it's very important to clarify what you're asking here. when you say a "mistake", you mean sexually assaulting/raping somebody, right?

I'm going to give you an example that happened in my country to help you visualize what I just said.

A TV animator has his own company and has a contract through a very well known TV channel. He has been doing this for years and is one of the favorites of the public eye.

Suddently, with the advent of #MeeToo, his name pops up and he is accused of sexual allegations, made several years ago. He is forced to step down from the scene, naturally, and will later see his contract terminated. It even made that big of a wave that he was also forced to sell shares of his own company.

So, not only his image is forever damaged, but he also lost everything in a heartbeat.

Scene is yours.

I don't know the situation you're describing, and I'd need an unbiased source, with independent sources.

Sexual harassment in the current state of times is over sensitive.

Kevin Spacey apologized for laying on someone while he was drunk at a party they were at together. The kid said “It occurred to me later on that he was trying to sexually advance.” Spacey barely recalls it but did the right thing by apologizing.

Seems like you're assuming that Spacey's story is the right one.

I haven’t read every countless accusation made against Weinstein because I gave up when they tallied a woman who said he made a pass on her in a hotel room. To me that means he might have said “Oh your butt looks nice in that,” or “Want to hook up?”

This, in my opinion, is not sexual harassment.

Very easy to say when you've never been in that position.

These celebrities wear provocative clothing, but then will get mad if you say something or look at the wrong part of their body. Average civilians behave in similar fashion.

"These celebrities" is such a generalization, can you keep it to specific individuals where exactly this happened?

Weinstein probably pissed off someone powerful in his industry and they’re shaming him in retaliation.

"Probably" - how do you know this? Where's your irrefutable evidence?

Should an abuser have their life ruined? Well... no... They definitely deserve punished though. They inflicted physical and mental pain on another and for that they should go away for a long time. That said, completely tarnishing somebody's name can be a little extreme. People make mistakes, and you can only learn from them.

Would you call rape/abuse a "mistake"?

I also noticed that your link only referred to powerful men being called out for sexual abuse. Women are just as guilty of this, and it's far worse (socially) to come forward as a man and say 'I got raped' (or what have you) than it is for a woman to do. There seems to be a 'men can't get raped lol' mentality and that's simply not the case.

Of course it's the case, but saying "men get raped too" doesn't diminish the conversation at hand.

In normal society its innocent until proven guilty. With these MeToo stuff it seems to work the other way around. As soon as someone posts whatever crap they want about you, you are pretty much condemned. No matter what you say or how obviously innocent you are, your carreer is already ruined.

I therefor dislike these kind of feminist outbursts that seemingly are there for the sole purpose of ruining as many men's lifes as possible.

You misunderstand deeply. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a tenet of the U.S. legal system. It has nothing to do with believing victims when they confide in you.

A very very small number of men do almost all of the sexual abuse in society

Source?

and it's pretty insulting for there to be a movement against rape, when the only men willing to sexually assault women are psychopaths.

I don't see the issue - if you're not a rapist, no worries!

The movement against murder doesn't get enough attention though, because the perpetrators are the same socioeconomic class as the victims, and they're all privileged males.

You could definitely start a movement against murder, then.

The cynical part of me wants women to be more skeptical of whom they barely know, and not put themselves in a vulnerable position to be taken advantage of by said psychopaths.

Right, the victims bear a share of the blame. Very reasonable.

This at least makes more sense to me than punishing the whole class because the quiet kid in back brought a rifle to math.

In this situation, how is the whole class being blamed?

 

[Chival]

I believe that it shouldn't even be an argument that someone faces the shame and embarrassment of sexually assaulting someone. Years could go by, but the assaulter should 100% face consequences of his/her actions.

 

[T V]

I believe that it shouldn't even be an argument that someone faces the shame and embarrassment of sexually assaulting someone. Years could go by, but the assaulter should 100% face consequences of his/her actions.

This ought to be the bottom line.

I think a substantial part of what it means, now and for the foreseeable future, to be a man (but more than that, to be a decent person) is to weed out misogyny, because it's plain to see there are many people who don't like the shift of power relations between men and women when they favor the latter (nor, of course, the former, but which of the two is more likely to be sexually assaulted?). Sure, neither gender has ever been always in power, but the "Weinstein Effect" has brought to light something very unsettling, and it ought to be of concern especially to those who think themselves impervious.

Lucky you if you're family has a long-established tradition of balanced power between the sexes.

 

[froopy]

You’re asking if there should be consequences for some actions and the answer to that is yes. Using your status for malicious behavior of any kind should be frowned upon. No one wants to work with a rapist so it’s understandable if he loses his job/sponsorships.

 

[BobCob]

important

 

[ilovegold69]

I think it's very important to clarify what you're asking here. when you say a "mistake", you mean sexually assaulting/raping somebody, right?



I don't know the situation you're describing, and I'd need an unbiased source, with independent sources.



Seems like you're assuming that Spacey's story is the right one.



Very easy to say when you've never been in that position.



"These celebrities" is such a generalization, can you keep it to specific individuals where exactly this happened?



"Probably" - how do you know this? Where's your irrefutable evidence?



Would you call rape/abuse a "mistake"?



Of course it's the case, but saying "men get raped too" doesn't diminish the conversation at hand.



You misunderstand deeply. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a tenet of the U.S. legal system. It has nothing to do with believing victims when they confide in you.



Source?



I don't see the issue - if you're not a rapist, no worries!



You could definitely start a movement against murder, then.



Right, the victims bear a share of the blame. Very reasonable.



In this situation, how is the whole class being blamed?

Forgot to source. Google Pareto distribution in crime

 

[Shredderbeam]

Forgot to source. Google Pareto distribution in crime

I'm very familiar with the 80-20 rule, but I did a Google search anyway, and couldn't find anything with regards to the Pareto distribution applying to sexual assault specifically.

Also, obviously, the burden of proof is upon the person who makes the claim. So if you can provide a solid, unbiased, source with specific facts/data, I'd be very glad to read it.

 

[ilovegold69]

I'm very familiar with the 80-20 rule, but I did a Google search anyway, and couldn't find anything with regards to the Pareto distribution applying to sexual assault specifically.

Also, obviously, the burden of proof is upon the person who makes the claim. So if you can provide a solid, unbiased, source with specific facts/data, I'd be very glad to read it.

I believe the ideology that women are disadvantaged in today's society (feminism) commonly touts non-evidential claims of famous men raping women as part of their grand philosophy. Maybe off-topic, but the reality is that almost all of these claims are: never actually verifiable, not valid in a court of law, and targeted at men in power on the anti-feminist blacklist. The whole movement is false-dilemma on loud, and the burden of proof is on the men who "supposedly raped those woman" and the only people that bat an eye are pretty unanimously defamed as "incel neckbeards".

Don't get me wrong, Cosby definitely fucking did it, right? The point I tried to make with the 80/20 rule is that even if these men all did it, it still can't even be indicative of a trend because it isn't real data.

Also as far as burden of proof is concerned I think it's an appeal to ignorance to say that there would be any reason for "crime" to not be a decent model for: assault, sexual assault, felonious assault, and felonious sexual assault. Maybe the reason men are so touchy about women blasting their idols with accusations of rape, is that they know full well that for every rapist man, there's a manipulative and abusive bitch girlfriend that nobody gets to hear about. And the way the math works out those two stereotypes are usually in relationships with EACHOTHER.

 

[Shredderbeam]

I believe the ideology that women are disadvantaged in today's society (feminism) commonly touts non-evidential claims of famous men raping women as part of their grand philosophy. Maybe off-topic, but the reality is that almost all of these claims are: never actually verifiable, not valid in a court of law, and targeted at men in power on the anti-feminist blacklist. The whole movement is false-dilemma on loud, and the burden of proof is on the men who "supposedly raped those woman" and the only people that bat an eye are pretty unanimously defamed as "incel neckbeards".

"I believe".

Okay, I'll listen to this part when you have more than belief. That is, evidence, obviously.

Also as far as burden of proof is concerned I think it's an appeal to ignorance to say that there would be any reason for "crime" to not be a decent model for: assault, sexual assault, felonious assault, and felonious sexual assault. Maybe the reason men are so touchy about women blasting their idols with accusations of rape, is that they know full well that for every rapist man, there's a manipulative and abusive bitch girlfriend that nobody gets to hear about. And the way the math works out those two stereotypes are usually in relationships with EACHOTHER.

I didn't deny your claim, I said that the burden of proof is upon the one who makes the claim. Again, if you have a solid, unbiased, source with specific facts/data, I'd be very glad to read it.

 

[Mamoosh]

The (incomplete) list of powerful men accused of sexual harassment after Harvey Weinstein - CNN
Kevin Spacey apologizes for alleged sex assault with a minor - CNN

So I am pretty sure you guys have all seen numerous stories on television about sexual allegations made against notorious people, latest being Kevin Spacey.

It goes without saying that these individuals are in the wrong, but in your opinion, do you believe ending someone's career because of a mistake made several years ago is a fair punishment? If so, explain why they deserve such fate. If not, explain what you base yourself on.

I'm going to give you an example that happened in my country to help you visualize what I just said.

A TV animator has his own company and has a contract through a very well known TV channel. He has been doing this for years and is one of the favorites of the public eye.

Suddently, with the advent of #MeeToo, his name pops up and he is accused of sexual allegations, made several years ago. He is forced to step down from the scene, naturally, and will later see his contract terminated. It even made that big of a wave that he was also forced to sell shares of his own company.

So, not only his image is forever damaged, but he also lost everything in a heartbeat.

Scene is yours.

Sexual assault is a horrible thing. If they are guilty they deserve the bad rep.

 

There has to be substantial proof of the crime. If they turn out to be guilty, then they deserve to get their careers destroyed. The issue is their careers are most likely already ruined with the accusations if they turn out to be innocent.

I've a good friend who had sex with this girl once. She wanted more (it was well-known she was clingy as hell before the sex even happened), but he turned her down. After a while, her rich father finds out about it and proceeds with a rape case against him. Now dude's in jail while innocent. There are probably numerous cases like these out there. That's why there has to be substantial evidence of a crime before a case proceeds.

 

[Shredderbeam]

There has to be substantial proof of the crime. If they turn out to be guilty, then they deserve to get their careers destroyed. The issue is their careers are most likely already ruined with the accusations if they turn out to be innocent.

I've a good friend who had sex with this girl once. She wanted more (it was well-known she was clingy as hell before the sex even happened), but he turned her down. After a while, her rich father finds out about it and proceeds with a rape case against him. Now dude's in jail while innocent. There are probably numerous cases like these out there. That's why there has to be substantial evidence of a crime before a case proceeds.

There does have to be substantial evidence of a crime before a case proceeds. If he's in jail, that means that (assuming that you're in the US) a jury of his peers reviewed the evidence, and found it sufficient to convict him. I don't know the truth of the matter, of course, but is it possible that your good friend bent the truth while describing the situation to you?

 

There does have to be substantial evidence of a crime before a case proceeds. If he's in jail, that means that (assuming that you're in the US) a jury of his peers reviewed the evidence, and found it sufficient to convict him. I don't know the truth of the matter, of course, but is it possible that your good friend bent the truth while describing the situation to you?

It's in Norway, and yes no doubt. He showed me the whole text convo between them where she started going crazy.

 

[Shredderbeam]

It's in Norway, and yes no doubt. He showed me the whole text convo between them where she started going crazy.

Honestly, I'm sure this isn't your first foray into the internet. I'm 100% confident that you don't expect that statement, without any proof, to sway anybody's opinion.