Legality of Virtual Sales

[FibOfAllFibs]

Okay, so I am going to post this again because I did not receive the information that I needed when I originally posted it a month ago.

Hi, I'm FibOfAllFibs. I am interested in opening a RWT (Gold, items, accounts, levels, etc.) business, using a VPS to bot my accounts and sell the items/gold for real-world profit (cash). My dad, a higher-up in a finiancial company, does not want me doing anything illegal. He argues that selling virtual items for real cash violates intellectual property rights, set up by the Runescape Terms of Service Agreement. (evidence shown below).


Also, he said that it violates the Paypal terms of service.


I told him that these things are not true, so he said that he would email his client who works with intellectual property rights to find out who was right. However, this client recently went through constructive surgery on his shoulder after being hit by a car, so it may take a very long while to hear back from him. So I am asking you, my fellow botters, cheaters, and sythers, is selling virtual property for real-world profit legal? I'm not talking about whether it breaks the Runescape TOS, I'm talking ACTUAL laws, like intellectual property rights. I would like some actual evidence, from people who really know what they're talking about. Things that would convince my dad that this is not illegal. Thanks!

 

[lunchboxx321]

jagex OWNS the gold on ur account. if u sell it directly it is illegal. I dont need to go google some evidence, u already posted it urself....re-read what u have circled and ull see that. the loophole is u sell a joke and the gold they acquire is a coincidence to purchasing the joke, or something similar to this...follow me?

 

[FibOfAllFibs]

jagex OWNS the gold on ur account. if u sell it directly it is illegal. I dont need to go google some evidence, u already posted it urself....re-read what u have circled and ull see that. the loophole is u sell a joke and the gold they acquire is a coincidence to purchasing the joke, or something similar to this...follow me?

Technically, you are right. Also, technically, you are wrong. Jagex does own the gold on the account, but it is not their financial property. Since tax laws and such do not touch virtual things, they do not have financial claim to it.

Also, if you read the post, you will see that my dad is a "higher up in a financial company." Everything on the internet can be tracked, and if his company finds that someone he is responsible for (me) is breaking the law with his permission, he will get fired. Selling a "joke" or "giving the items for free and getting the money for free" is stupid. It would not hold up in court.

 

[Sillymonkey]

How could you possibly believe that it isn't illegal?

I almost went on a rant that is slightly irrelevant and slightly relevant at the same time (the possible outcome from selling GP, assuming the government actually gave a damn), but I really can't be bothered.

 

[FibOfAllFibs]

How could you possibly believe that it isn't illegal?

I almost went on a rant that is slightly irrelevant and slightly relevant at the same time (the possible outcome from selling GP, assuming the government actually gave a damn), but I really can't be bothered.

Do me a favor, google the phrase "selling drugs." In the first two search results, you can see that selling drugs is illegal. Now google "selling virtual items." Nowhere is there an official site that has evidence for it being illegal.
If it was absolutely-without-a-doubt illegal, would it not be said somewhere?

 

[Sillymonkey]

Do me a favor, google the phrase "selling drugs." In the first two search results, you can see that selling drugs is illegal. Now google "selling virtual items." Nowhere is there an official site that has evidence for it being illegal.
If it was absolutely-without-a-doubt illegal, would it not be said somewhere?

If you want an "end all, be all" answer, go to the library and hop on one of the computers, set up a Hotmail account, and e-mail Jagex your question.

When they reply with the same kind of BS that they bring websites/"companies" to court for (Google it, I cbf referencing, I'm at work right now trying to act like I do my job), please request this thread to be closed.

 

[L2Bweb]

Regardless if it's illegal or not, good luck selling directly through PayPal. Make sure you know what you're doing, because I had 2 credit cards banned before I finally figured out how the business worked. There's multiple ways to run yours, but be prepared for the worst because you will come across some problems that you won't believe, such as $250 tied up on PayPal, or a chargeback, etc.

Easier said than done, not trying to getbring your hopes down I would still say to go for it because it's a lot of fun and it's decent money.

Now, on topic - It's illegal. Stop being hard headed, it's against the rules and it's clearly stated. Is anything going to happen if you're caught? No.

 

[Sillymonkey]

Just did a quick Google and I found at least 1 country it is illegal in, and this obviously can't be the only country it is illegal in:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/06/29/china-bans-gold-farming/

 

[FibOfAllFibs]

Regardless if it's illegal or not, good luck selling directly through PayPal. Make sure you know what you're doing, because I had 2 credit cards banned before I finally figured out how the business worked. There's multiple ways to run yours, but be prepared for the worst because you will come across some problems that you won't believe, such as $250 tied up on PayPal, or a chargeback, etc.

Easier said than done, not trying to get your hopes down I would still say to go for it because it's a lot of fun and it's decent money.

Now, on topic - It's illegal. Stop being hard headed, it's against the rules and it's clearly stated. Is anything going to happen if you're caught? No.

Thank you for your advice, I don't add credit cards to my paypal accounts.

On topic, just because it's against the TOS, does that necessarily make it against the law? All I can see that it does is violate your agreement with Jagex, but, other than that, it doesn't seem to go farther.

 

[L2Bweb]

Me either, mine was bank funded but then they ban your credit card, so you have to go get a new credit card (probably against the law & I've done it twice). Just make sure you have multiple payment options, or go through PlayerAuctions. You'll figure it out, hopefully not the hard way.

 

[FibOfAllFibs]

Just did a quick Google and I found at least 1 country it is illegal in, and this obviously can't be the only country it is illegal in:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/06/29/china-bans-gold-farming/

China is also the only country where it was fully legal, because US and UK business clauses do not touch merchants in China. So they were immune to any of the civil consequences of violating said agreements.

 

[Sillymonkey]

China is also the only country where it was fully legal, because US and UK business clauses do not touch merchants in China. So they were immune to any of the civil consequences of violating said agreements.

You just basically said it is AT BEST partially legal everywhere else, making it more or less illegal.

EDIT: Don't try to call it a gray area because it is a black market job.

 

[FibOfAllFibs]

You just basically said it is AT BEST partially legal everywhere else, making it more or less illegal.

No, I said there are civil consequences to breaking the agreements.
Like the little kid who sued Justin Bieber for punching him. Punching someone is not a criminal issue, it is a civil one. Bieber couldn't get put in jail for punching the kid, but he could get sued it court.

 

[lunchboxx321]

Do me a favor, google the phrase "selling drugs." In the first two search results, you can see that selling drugs is illegal. Now google "selling virtual items." Nowhere is there an official site that has evidence for it being illegal.
If it was absolutely-without-a-doubt illegal, would it not be said somewhere?

ok...im not trying to flame u..but seriously...typing something in google and skimming headlines for the word illegal isnt how u find out if somethings legal or not...seriously? u think lawyers sit in court with a little laptop and type crimes into google and just quote the 1st 3 headlines? wtf...google?????

 

[Sillymonkey]

No, I said there are civil consequences to breaking the agreements.
Like the little kid who sued Justin Bieber for punching him. Punching someone is not a criminal issue, it is a civil one. Bieber couldn't get put in jail for punching the kid, but he could get sued it court.

This is where you cease to make sense, you make this whole thing about to be "oh if I get found out that I was farming teh goldz my daddies reputation is gonna be teh screwzed"

Even if it just was a civil liability, the bad press around you getting sued would be as equally damaging to your father as if it had criminal implications.

And to the JBieb thing, if he caused the kid trauma/damage from that punch, he would have most certainly gone to jail. It's all about the impact your actions have.

 

[pu3r neon2]

It's illegal. Jagex won't go after you though unless you're one of the 'big boys' as its really too costly for them. Intellectual property isn't solely connected to things that are taxable by the way. For the amount of money you'll undoubtedly earn per week it'd be easier to just get a proper job.

 

[Eazy Mac]

wow yes everything u just asked is ILLEGAL.

 

[Attemptionizer]

I smell an americunt. Sue this, sue that, sue everyone for everything. Seriously, IF I was an american and lived in there, I probably would not do it - because America is the only place where people sue others for such minor issues, some being so stupid it's almost disgusting. For example a woman sued a store for $120k because there was a child running around the woman while she was shopping, causing the woman to trip, losing some of her teeth. The woman who tripped was the mother of this child, and she won the case.

But back to the topic - Yes it is against the ToS, and when you created an account on runescape, you have agreed with the ToS, thus making it -illegal-. However, I really, really doubt that any action will be taken against you unless you start selling like $170k dollars worth of gold, like the hacker of chessy did.

 

[Punchy]

It's illegal to sell directly yeah. But if your just giving it away for free, and someone is donating you money for giving it to them there's no harm in it.

 

[shortperson]

there game is copy written so i am amusing that selling whats theres they made it did not sell it and it sits on there servers its theres