Israel, a real state?

[Ottis]

Shredder, Look back at history and maybe youll notice that almost all countrys were taken by force and more brutally then Israel. Whys everyone suddenly notice it when its israel? And seriously, look at the old catholics before you talk.


And wtf? do you know how many accomodations israel has made for Palestine? They gave them the gaza strip and what do they do? Instead of trying to help other palestinians or make peace they turn the gaza strip into a missile pad. So stfu and read before you talk.

Sea you nub every piece of land was with force and war but not in the moddern time myabe in the 10th century or the 11th, 12th, 13th ,14th , 15, 16, 17th, 18, 19th, not 20th and 21th century this is modern we dont do that anymore kid but eyy the israelies are doing it they like conqured Palestine rite after worldwar2 thast still in the 20th century but i dont care God hates Jews

 

[inkytinkyboo]

Jewish people were their first.

"Native Americans were there first"
"Aboriginals were there first"
"black people in south africa were there first"
"I was in your mom first"

Etc, the list goes on.

 

[Titan]

Israel was created by a terrorist group called "The Haganah." It was led by their terrorist leader David Ben-Gurion. When Israel was created, Palestine was under British control (It was seized by them in WWI when the Ottoman Empire lost the war) and no, It wasn't the Palestinians or the Muslims that labeled them such, it was the British government. Israel exists only today and only because of US aid. The US provided Israel with armaments, weaponry, aircraft, artillery and ammunition and even provided it with nuclear capabilities which it denies Iran to fight its wars, had it not been for America, there would have been no Israel. But Israel only exists to spread American hegemony. America supported Israel to spread its influence in the Middle-East, to preserve its interests of oil in that region.

I can't bother going into more details, I don't get paid to waste my time here.

FOR FUCKS SAKE, ALL I'M TRYING TO SAY IS, THAT AMERICA AND THE UK WANT TO DESTROY ISLAM, THEY WANT TO EXTORT MY RELIGION, THEY WANT TO ANTAGONIZE IT. THAT IS WHY THEY CREATED THE TERRORISTS, TO FIND AN EXCUSE TO INVADE MUSLIM NATIONS. 9/11 AND ALL THESE SO CALLED "ACTS OF TERROR" ARE ALL DONE BY THE UK AND US GOVERNMENTS THEMSELVES...

 

[inkytinkyboo]

Israel was created by a terrorist group called "The Haganah." It was led by their terrorist leader David Ben-Gurion. When Israel was created, Palestine was under British control (It was seized by them in WWI when the Ottoman Empire lost the war) and no, It wasn't the Palestinians or the Muslims that labeled them such, it was the British government. Israel exists only today and only because of US aid. The US provided Israel with armaments, weaponry, aircraft, artillery and ammunition and even provided it with nuclear capabilities which it denies Iran to fight its wars, had it not been for America, there would have been no Israel. But Israel only exists to spread American hegemony. America supported Israel to spread its influence in the Middle-East, to preserve its interests of oil in that region.

I can't bother going into more details, I don't get paid to waste my time here.

FOR FUCKS SAKE, ALL I'M TRYING TO SAY IS, THAT AMERICA AND THE UK WANT TO DESTROY ISLAM, THEY WANT TO EXTORT MY RELIGION, THEY WANT TO ANTAGONIZE IT. THAT IS WHY THEY CREATED THE TERRORISTS, TO FIND AN EXCUSE TO INVADE MUSLIM NATIONS. 9/11 AND ALL THESE SO CALLED "ACTS OF TERROR" ARE ALL DONE BY THE UK AND US GOVERNMENTS THEMSELVES...

Titan is the one of the people who understand what they're talking about. Thanks

كس ام كل الصهاينة واللي بدافع عنهم

Also, كل عام وانت بألف خير على العيد المبارك!

 

[IcyDude]

i've read your entire post, and i must say you are ignorant- your writing is extremely biased and it's obvious you never actually learned about the topic properly, and only listened to propaganda from your side (i can see that clearly from the way your post is written)

general background on me- i participated in the "seeds of peace" program where i met palestinian youth and had dialogues with them on the exact same topic you are discussing.
i will comment what i think about what you posted here based on what i know.


now, lets see, the balfour declaration-

it promises the jews a national home in the Palestine mandate which the british took from the ottoman empire, at the time the area was scarcely settled, and most people whom you refer to as "native" palestinians came there following the influx of jewish and british immigration- im not blaming them, the place offered new possibillities, jobs, and a better life.

now, the UN partition plan decided to divide palestine which was inhabited by jews and arabs into two countries- the jews accepted the partition plan but the arabs declined and declared war , although the partition plan was fair on all accounts (the jews got 56% of the land to accomodate for the jewish immigration, but most of the jewish state-to be was a barren desert)

however, the palestinian arabs declined the partition plan and declared a war who's intended purpose was the destruction of the jewish settlement , there are various quotes from the Grand mufti of Jerusalem to prove this, calling to "throw the jews into the sea"


now, as for your absurd claim that the jews kicked out the palestinian refugees- most of today's palestinian refugees left on their own accord, some because arab rulers told them to leave so they dont get caught in the fighting, and some because they were simply afraid of the war (arab media also encouraged this by making claims of massacres that never took place, such as the fake "deir yassin massacre")

to those claiming that the jews started the war in palestine- you are either liars or ignorants, the palestinian arabs wanted to kill the jews since before 1948, examples-
-1929 hebron massacre
-1937 arab revolt in which many jewish villages were destroyed
- 1945 grand mufti of jerusalem meets with hitler, discussing how to implement the final solution on the jews in palestine-

as these points clearly show- the arabs fought the peaceful jewish settlements in palestine since before teh jewish defence groups such as the haganah came to be, and in 1948 the palestinian arabs fought us with the declared goal of throwing us into the sea, we won, and as a result of the war many palestinian arabs fled, many also chose to stay and they have better civil rights here than in most arab countries (although im not denying there is some racism towards them)

the reason that the palestinians "fighting for their land" are called terrorists, is because they attack citizens (how is launching rockets towards a village achieve anything except killing innocent civillians?)


so yeah, Hamas / Fatah / etc = TERRORISTS

PS- to those claiming that Zionism is somewhat a "fanatic relligious organisation" you are ignorant, it is a secular organisation.

 

[LegitNamesCo]

Because US likes money & war, what else?

Perhaps the fact that Israel is locked in by several countries that fit see to destroy it?
Israel is our allies.

ISRAEL, US, UK = EVIL

They start war they do terrorism and blame it on MUSLIMS

Im just happy that in the next 10years Israel will be nuked by my country IRAN im just really happy because every evil thing that happens in this world is by US, UK, Israel...

Think about this Why was hitler trying to destroy all Jews, Americans to prevent all of this, and now this days Jews control the media they make you beleive what ever they want dont let them fool you

GOD HATES JEWS

Wait, what?

The media is liberally owned, most Jewish men/women are conservative.

Jewish = God's chosen people, kthnx?

FOR FUCKS SAKE, ALL I'M TRYING TO SAY IS, THAT AMERICA AND THE UK WANT TO DESTROY ISLAM

I don't think it's quite like that, Titan.
But I have no cell in my body that would be sad if Islam fell apart. Your Islamic Fascists kill MY people. You know, I have an anecdote for this. My uncle was shot in the chest 3 times by an Islamic Fascist. He asked if he was Christian, my uncle replied yes, and the guy shot him. Why? Because your religion applies "Convert or die." Killing someone with a religion basis, to me, is terrorism.

“They will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam” - Qur'an

And I, for one. Am this. --->كافر

On the other note: Israel has been around since Like 500BC or so, most likely earlier.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Perhaps the fact that Israel is locked in by several countries that fit see to destroy it?
Israel is our allies.

Wait, what?

The media is liberally owned, most Jewish men/women are conservative.

Jewish = God's chosen people, kthnx?

I don't think it's quite like that, Titan.
But I have no cell in my body that would be sad if Islam fell apart. Your Islamic Fascists kill MY people. You know, I have an anecdote for this. My uncle was shot in the chest 3 times by an Islamic Fascist. He asked if he was Christian, my uncle replied yes, and the guy shot him. Why? Because your religion applies "Convert or die." Killing someone with a religion basis, to me, is terrorism.

“They will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam” - Qur'an

And I, for one. Am this. --->كافر

On the other note: Israel has been around since Like 500BC or so, most likely earlier.

They have every right to live there, but do they have a right to seize territory from another nation, expel all natives, and declare it their own? I must get in on this.

 

[LegitNamesCo]

They have every right to live there, but do they have a right to seize territory from another nation, expel all natives, and declare it their own? I must get in on this.

All's fair in love and war, right?

Anywase, Israel, has been known as Israel, and has been there for thousands of years.
It IS a nation. They have their own flag, laws, etc.

If someone conquered my nation, and expelled me. I wouldn't care, it wouldn't be my nation anymore.

 

[Shredderbeam]

All's fair in love and war, right?

Actually, no, it's not.

Anywase, Israel, has been known as Israel, and has been there for thousands of years.
It IS a nation. They have their own flag, laws, etc.

They're a nation, but not a legitimate one.

If someone conquered my nation, and expelled me. I wouldn't care, it wouldn't be my nation anymore.

Yes, I'm sure you wouldn't care that you had to leave your home, go live in highly controlled areas where your enemies control your water and electricity, and be under constant threat of attack.

 

[LegitNamesCo]

Here's the solution to everything.
Israel is a lie.
There's no such thing as "Israel" like I've mentioned before.

It's called Palestine.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/maps/israel.html

Please read this.


Merriam-Webster makes text books for highschools.

Now, after you're done looking at the map on that, click on this link.

http://israelvets.com/picts/nation_reborn/full_size_images/PalestineMap.jpg

Notice how only a small portion of Palestine became Israel?

Israel is a sovereign nation in and of itself.

Is that non-biased enough?

 

[Shredderbeam]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/maps/israel.html

Please read this.


Merriam-Webster makes text books for highschools.

Now, after you're done looking at the map on that, click on this link.

http://israelvets.com/picts/nation_reborn/full_size_images/PalestineMap.jpg

Notice how only a small portion of Palestine became Israel?

Israel is a sovereign nation in and of itself.

Is that non-biased enough?

The real debate is whether Israel is a legitimate state, and whether it should exist.

 

[IcyDude]

Shredder- there is no debate whether or not israel is a legitimate state- it was declared a state by the UN, which is far more legitimate than, for example, the US, who took their land by force from the native americans.

israel has every right to exist, because every national greoup, especially the jews who were persecuted for centuries, deserve a right of self determination, and the abillity to be able to protect themselves, and the "holy land" is the only suitable location for that because it is the cradle of the jewish culture.

the problem is that people who deny our right to exist as a country are usually ignorant of history and do not know the Truth about the israel-palestinian conflict, and get their false information from Pro-palestinian sources.

(read my previous post- it covers the absurd claim that the jews "expelled all of the palestinians by force" and that "the jews started the war")

the truth is, that the Palestinians started the war in order to destroy the jews (i have plenty of quotes from palestinian leaders of the time to re-affirm that, if the picture of the grand mufti meeting with hitler is not enough) and the jews simply fought back.

yes, many palestinians fled the war, some were forcefully expelled , but the vast majority fled ismply because there was a war, or arab leaders told them to do so, saying that "they could return after the arab armies smite the jews" (unfortunately for them that didnt quite work as planned) for example I , living in Haifa (a city in israel if you havent guessed yet) know for a fact from some of my arab neighbours that arab leaders urged the palestinians to flee, and today those who fled are held in refugee camps in egypt, syria, and lebanon, and are used by these countries to de-legitimize my country, saying that they were all "kicked out by force by the satanic zionist regime"

i find it puzzling, however, that nobody talks about the roughly 1 million jewish-arab refugees that were all forcefully thrown out of the muslim nations in which they lived for centuries in 1948.

nobody asks the arab nations for compensation or anything for the jews whom they kicked out by force.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Shredder- there is no debate whether or not israel is a legitimate state- it was declared a state by the UN, which is far more legitimate than, for example, the US, who took their land by force from the native americans.

When I say legitimate, I do not mean legitimate in the eyes of the U.N. I mean legitimate in terms of "Do they have a right to that land?".

The U.S. frequently ousted Native Americans from their villages and territories - but they also took uninhabited land. The situations are not quite identical.

israel has every right to exist, because every national greoup, especially the jews who were persecuted for centuries, deserve a right of self determination, and the abillity to be able to protect themselves, and the "holy land" is the only suitable location for that because it is the cradle of the jewish culture.

Let me remind you - groups do not exist. Individuals exist.

Why does every collective deserve a piece of land? You can have your self determination without an official "Jewish country".

yes, many palestinians fled the war, some were forcefully expelled , but the vast majority fled ismply because there was a war, or arab leaders told them to do so, saying that "they could return after the arab armies smite the jews" (unfortunately for them that didnt quite work as planned) for example I , living in Haifa (a city in israel if you havent guessed yet) know for a fact from some of my arab neighbours that arab leaders urged the palestinians to flee, and today those who fled are held in refugee camps in egypt, syria, and lebanon, and are used by these countries to de-legitimize my country, saying that they were all "kicked out by force by the satanic zionist regime"

And there is the problem. You can live wherever you want, but you do not have the right to forcefully expel somebody from their property.

 

[IcyDude]

let me correct several points-

the jews in palestine also took , and bought , uninhabited land- its theirs.

now, as for those who were forcefully kicked out- they were a minority, and most of those who were kicked out were not quiet peasants, but rather they were armed forces who fought us in order to kill.

and as for having self determination without a jewish state- when the jews cant protect themselves they are always persecuted, and i dont even need to provide examples for that, you already know.


personally however, i think palestinain refugees should be allowed to return to an independant palestinian state in the west bank and gaza, when they reach independance, because the only way is to share