In answer to: How do you know you are right?

"So she doesn't even have to prove he can't exist"

ok so George says, "God exists"

I guess George doesn't have to prove anything either?

I mean Lucy surely cannot come up with anything disproving this statement.

"Given that you religious types do not use reason to determine truth from falsehood (except when your life actually depends on it) how are you to know what elements of your teachings are incorrect and what elements correct?"

I classify myself as a "religious type" and I surely do use reason to determine truth from falsehood and my reasoning leads me to believe that there is a superior being that created this world and all its complexities (God)

my reasoning also leads me to believe that the theory of evolution is false and faaar from logical.

 

What reasoning? And I presume you have actually studied it, not just blindly accepted the bullshit that we were created and have not changed since (It should be noted that evolution has absolutely nothing to do with how life started)

 

that junk about the rock was silly

how can you expect a supernatural being like God to fit within the boundaries of whats irrational and rational

you cannot use HUMAN reasoning when speaking about God

this method of trickery has already been tried by persons much smarter than you and it has failed

ie. Satan

*back to George and Lucy*

if Lucy has provided George with nothing that makes her claim true

well then it seems that we are at a stalemate

if Lucy can't prove that God DOESN'T exist and George can't prove he DOES

then it's pointless and really just a matter of beliefs and faith

and sure I don't have any concrete facts that God is indeed real, but I do have facts and information that has led me to truly BELIEVE that the existence of God is possible and highly probable and real in my opinion

 

lol you know what i'm just going to end this discussion in the next few posts

arguing against your foolishness had made me look foolish also

scratch what I said about the human reasoning

whether you want to call it God, Bob, Zod, or Rob

this world has a CREATOR and it EXISTS

answer this question

if I told you your keyboard got there by itself, would you believe me?

 

You are an idiot. You ignore all the arguments presented against you, and still, you persist in your ignorance.
There is no such thing as the christian god, I can tell you that much.
You are completely irrational.

As to your question, that is an awful analogy.
No, I would say I put it there.

 

ok..

xD

back to Sythe

there is no argument that you presented that disproves the existence of a creator called God, or whatever name you want to call it

 

What an interesting point you have stumbled upon! A creator must be at least as complex as its creation, if not more so. A spear will never make a craftsman, a car will never create an auto mechanic, and so on. So, if this universe was created, then the existence of its creator is as improbable, or more so, than the existence of the universe!

 

Don't you mean proved your foolishness?

 

if you believe something as simple as your keyboard got there by itself how do you not believe the world got here by itself?

THAT is irrational

everything in this world has a creator, and that is a fact

now for you to believe that the world and humans weren't created is just plain illogical

it is not false, it is obviously something that man cannot comprehend

saying that there is no creator is just foolish

you have said nothing that disproves the existence of God, don't gas yourself

Shredderbeam, your post makes absolutely no sense, clear that up

Sythe,,I can't argue with you if you can't even use basic logical thinking to understand that there is a creator

who do you believe designed us?

who decided to make humans with two eyes instead of twelve?

do you honestly think by chance we were designed in such a complex fashion?

xD

the existence of a creator is obvious, I am sorry you don't have enough common sense to see this

:\

 

If you're speaking of the universe, it's the "root node", so to speak. It was not created, it does not need a creator.

I demand evidence of this.

Not at all.

I disagree, and, once again, demand evidence of a creator.

I don't see why you would believe in a God if the existence of one had no been proven.

When an entity creates a non-developing thing, then that thing must be less complex than the entity. You do not see spears making craftsmen, but rather, craftsmen making spears. So, God is not a satisfactory explanation for the universe's existence, because "God did it" leaves the question of "Where did God come from?" unanswered.

What you demonstrated was not logical thinking.

The current prevailing theory is evolution. It would hold that two eyes are better than one, for depth perception, but that more than two is inefficient, uses up more brain processing power than it's worth, etc.

Many Creationists think that the only two options are design and chance. This is NOT the case! There is another option known as "Natural Selection".

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html#natsel

 

I have read through this thread many times in hopes of finding a mistake in even your reasoning, and finally I have obtained the glimmer of hope for all the believers of this thread. Anything which is real and knowable can be reasoned about... but can you reason about something you don't know for sure? I'm afraid you can't. Now you may think that by making a rational statement in attempt to exploit the existence of God that you are correct, only due to the inability to respond with a rational argument. However this is not "knowable." The only evidence we have supporting the existence of God is the Bible, which is only the series of KNOWN books all squeezed into one convenient book. However, many scholars admit that some of the books and stories and possibly even revisions to the bible's stories were lost long ago, and so we are left with the incomplete. Without the entire story we are left with only a fraction of the story and, in essence, the law. Without that we cannot know all of God's intentions, and therefore we can not speculate on religion if we don't know the entire story. This entire thread seems almost as stupid as a critic telling an author he doesn't know the ending to his own book. It is impossible to determine to existence of God using the materials we have today. Maybe at one point in time it was possible, and maybe the ancients verified it and that is why it has lasted this long, but we can never know, and there is no room to claim rational arguments on a topic without all of the facts. Now I am not undermining your rationale here Sythe because, of course, both of our opinions are rational. With this post I am attempting to convey the realization that this is a topic that, in fact, can not be intelligently debated unless you are willing to accept the irrational.

 

Why would you accept something that is irrational in a debate, which is by definition rational?

 

Well my friend... people can be as rational as they would like, to be honest. However, rationality does not in any way prove your correctness on a subject, it only means you may have made a valid point. Many rational ideas and theories have been disproved, and the fact of the matter is, this particular topic cannot be proved in anyway in the near future and I doubt it ever will be proved to the living; therefore this situation in itself is paradoxical. It is loaded with rational statements that may or may not be true or false. This is why religion involves faith. You must believe it without proof, and there is really no room for debate.

 

So by extension, irrationality means you have made an invalid point?

 

Well you can put it that way, or it can be more accurately defined as a point without valid reasoning or accurate judgment. So if you use invalid reasoning and inaccurate judgment, then yes, irrationality means you have made an invalid point considering the criteria.

 

God provides those who have faith in Him with hope, with a vague optimism. Going by your statement, God's existence is irrational, and its therefore irrational to believe in Him. This makes the faith of 1.1b people irrational, their hope and any optimism they have in life.

It's hard enough having to cope, hearing about and seeing all this suffering in the world. For 4 billion people, 1.1 billion of which are Christian, the only thing that comforts them is the feeling of a higher power that will welcome them with open arms. What we don't need, is people like you taking away that last piece of optimism, that thing that keeps us going.

If thats the way you feel, then so be it. But don't try and take this away from us.
Why is it so important that you have to be right, and that everyone believes what you do? You're never going to change the way we feel. There'd be so many more suicides, such a more gloomy world without that presence "up there", and if we didn't believe that bad things happen for a reason, I doubt that the world would have nearly enough of a population as it does now.

Since you like using examples, I'll give you one.

Your output on life is affected by what you believe in, and without my beliefs, without being able to KNOW that there's a bigger plan behind all this, I wouldn't be able to go on.

 

That is no more to the point than the fact that a drunk man is happier than a sober one.

So, to clarify, because the majority believes something makes it true?

It's hard enough having to cope, hearing about and seeing all this suffering in the world. For 4 billion people, 1.1 billion of which are Christian, the only thing that comforts them is the feeling of a higher power that will welcome them with open arms. [/quote]
Actually, I see and hear all the suffering, and I am an atheist. I feel comfort in that I try to work to change it. Are false hopes a good thing?

So, in the face of enormous evidence against your side you would persist in your irrational belief?