HenrySpencer is a scammer!

[Lazy23]

Link to scammer's Sythe profile:
http://www.sythe.org/members/355103-henryspencer.html

Briefly explain the trade:
HenrySpencer made a thread asking for multiple skills to be trained, I enquired about it and said I would do Account #5 (Smelting 3k iron bars and 500 bronze bars). Initially when I asked I said I would do the service for free, which he responded "Ill pay 500k when your done smelting". So there and then this had now become a paid service in my books to smelt the 3.5k bars for 500k. He then proceeded to give me his username/password, which was followed by a brief discussion of him asking me to post on his thread. Eventually it came to a point where he logged so I thought that the discussion was over and done with.

I began the service shortly after, smelting around 1k bars (HenrySpencer admits this in PM's for proof), and next thing I know I've been disconnected with the pass changed. This led me to believe someone hacked the account so I wasted my time PM'ing Superman asking him for advice and me fretting over what would happen if I got reported (thinking he might claim I hacked him). Five hours later he finally came back on and it turns out he had changed the pass and was waiting on me to post on his thread.

I then tell him to pay me a proportion of the 500k he offered based on the work I had done due to fact I never finished the service as he changed the pass. He then tries to bring up the fact I initially offered it free and after tries to twist what he said with the whole "DONE" smelting to try and avoid paying. In regards to both statements which can be seen in the PM's, the free offer was made void when he offered the 500k payment. As for the word "DONE", I was done the moment he changed the pass as he never specifically said when I'm done smelting all 3.5k ores; so that's way too vague to try and be used as an excuse.

So basically this report is in regards his failure to pay for the service and is based on principle more than anything else. I personally would like the user to pay me the full 500k for the service I did, as he changed the pass and if we go by the "norm" once you change the pass you still pay the full amount. I would have accepted the reduced amount before, but as it has come to this I figure I might as well ask for the full amount which I believe I'm entitled to.

Obviously if you want to issue a ban I'm all for it, however the case probably isn't enough to justify one. Also, if I'm allowed to claim more than the amount he owes due to me wasting my time chasing this up, plus making me think the account got hacked whilst I was working on it I'm all for that to. However, the latter two I'll leave at your discretion.

Screenshots:

 

[malakadang]

Disregarding the fact that you can't actually see who your PMing, I'll assume it's him your PMing (just post a screenshot proving it when you reply)

When was this PM made: "Account #5 Please post on my thread saying that you are doing this order" with reference to how many bars you had smelted? When, timing wise, did he give you the password to his account with reference to the PMs.

Could you possibly post a time log of what happened please?


I'm sympathetic to his reason for wanting you to post on the thread, and changing the password because you didn't (for future reference, I don't think that would be interpreted as spam). That said, it seems very unorthodox to hand someone over the account information when a deal hasn't been finalized.

If he does have to pay you, it will be 143k for services rendered UNLESS you both have specified and agreed that him changing the password would entitle you to the full payment.

 

[Lazy23]

Proof of PM's:

Time Log Requested:
[07:34] - I messaged Henry saying I would do account #5 for free.
[08:01] - HenrySpencer Replied with "Ill pay 500k when your done smelting"
[08:03] - I replied with "I did say for free, but sure.", and asking him to send me the login details (or send me Skype/MSN if he wanted to do there)
[08:08] - Sends me "Account #5 (Username/Password)
Please post on my thread saying that you are doing this order". So I have been given the username/password in this message.
[08:17-09:45] - We send PM's back and forth during this time in regards to me posting on his thread. I personally saw no reason to post on his thread, all it would be doing would be bumping his thread. The only reason he could need is that it would be a confirmation that I'm doing it, which is why my first reply was "Why? That's spam on my part, there's no need. If you need a confirmation I can confirm now that I'm doing account #5 now via this PM". So I had already confirmed via a PM, and personally saw no need to do it again on his thread.
[09:45] - This was the last message I received from him in regards to posting on his thread. He also became inactive around this time.
[09:56] - This is the last message I sent in regards to the posting on the thread, which didn't gain any response.
[10:00-11:00] - In-between this time I worked on the order, don't know exact timing. All I know is I managed 500 bronze bars & 500 iron bars when I got disconnected, and then password wasn't working.
[11:04] - This is when I sent HenrySpencer an initial message saying I believed he had been hacked. He wasn't on at the time, the last time he was active was around the time he had sent me the last PM at 09:45. The next time he was on wasn't till 4-5 hours later. I also added him on skype/msn at this time which didn't gain any response.
[11:30-12:00] - PM'd Superman asking for advise thinking the account got hacked and I would be held responsible.
[16:47] - I see that he's online on Sythe, so I log on. He hasn't replied to my initial message asking about him being hacked, so I re-quote it and asked him what's going on.
[16:52-17:36] - The second lots of PM'd which can be seen in the OP. Basically me asking if he's going to pay me and him basically saying no.

I'm sympathetic to his reason for wanting you to post on the thread, and changing the password because you didn't (for future reference, I don't think that would be interpreted as spam). That said, it seems very unorthodox to hand someone over the account information when a deal hasn't been finalized.

In the first PM he sent me asking me to post on his thread was also the PM in which he sent me the username/password. So as far as I was aware he basically had accepted I would be doing the order and would be needing the post as a confirmation. This is why I replied with the PM saying I confirm I'm doing it and there's no need for the post, because to me that post would have just been a free bump. We then had the discussion about it, which basically ended with him logging. So as far as I was concerned I thought he had accepted that I wasn't going to post and had moved on.

I want to mention he never once said that if I didn't post he would change the pass and not let me do the order, which like you said if he wanted the post before I started then why did he send me the user/pass beforehand? Also, I would like to point out we discussed this over a 90 minute time period and not once thought to change the pass, he actually waited till I was midway through doing the order and had already logged of Sythe to change the pass meaning I had no contact with him.

Also, in regards to you being sympathetic. He claims because I didn't post on his thread confirming I can't be trusted. Taken into consideration I confirmed via the PM and if you look at my skilling service vouches I've been trusted with way more than the 500k his account was worth, there is no logical reason unless he wanted a free bump why I should have been forced to post. Hopefully the way he changed the pass and acted after will make you understand why I'm not as sympathetic as you.

If he does have to pay you, it will be 143k for services rendered UNLESS you both have specified and agreed that him changing the password would entitle you to the full payment.

I was under the impression as basically the only thing we agreed on was I would the order for X amount, that it would be under the mods discretion how much would have to be paid given the circumstances. As there was no agreement of a partial payment for a partial service either.

Like I said above the only thing we agreed on was I would do account #5 which was 3000 iron bars & 500 bronze bars and quoting him he would "pay 500k when" I was "done smelting". There was no discussion about anything else, except the posting on the thread which never materialised as he logged before it could.

The fact is he changed the pass with no warning, didn't even let me know till 5 hours later and then out righted refused to pay me for what I had done. As far as I'm concerned if you rule in favour of him paying me the minimum of 143k (which he already had the chance to pay), you can simply close this report as to me that's the same as him getting away with what he did scot-free. Personally I was "done smelting" the moment he changed the pass, what's worse for me is he had the audacity to not even contact me and think he could just continue like if nothing had ever happened.

The only thing I could use to try and justify somewhere that changing the pass would mean I still get paid is if you look at my skilling service thread. I have a ToS there and if you look at number #8 ("By posting a order confirmation you agree to the ToS"), this would fall under him sending me his login details. Then at #2 ("You will not change your character's password until the service is finished"), that's the only substance I have in regards to a ToS beforehand. Then him changing the pass would've broke my ToS which means the service is made void and still being paid is implied. Obviously I doubt this last paragraph will merit anything, but it's the only thing that I have that can justify an agreement in regards to a payment due to the password change.

 

[malakadang]

Proof of PM's:

Time Log Requested:
[07:34] - I messaged Henry saying I would do account #5 for free.
[08:01] - HenrySpencer Replied with "Ill pay 500k when your done smelting"
[08:03] - I replied with "I did say for free, but sure.", and asking him to send me the login details (or send me Skype/MSN if he wanted to do there)
[08:08] - Sends me "Account #5 (Username/Password)
Please post on my thread saying that you are doing this order". So I have been given the username/password in this message.
[08:17-09:45] - We send PM's back and forth during this time in regards to me posting on his thread. I personally saw no reason to post on his thread, all it would be doing would be bumping his thread. The only reason he could need is that it would be a confirmation that I'm doing it, which is why my first reply was "Why? That's spam on my part, there's no need. If you need a confirmation I can confirm now that I'm doing account #5 now via this PM". So I had already confirmed via a PM, and personally saw no need to do it again on his thread.
[09:45] - This was the last message I received from him in regards to posting on his thread. He also became inactive around this time.
[09:56] - This is the last message I sent in regards to the posting on the thread, which didn't gain any response.
[10:00-11:00] - In-between this time I worked on the order, don't know exact timing. All I know is I managed 500 bronze bars & 500 iron bars when I got disconnected, and then password wasn't working.
[11:04] - This is when I sent HenrySpencer an initial message saying I believed he had been hacked. He wasn't on at the time, the last time he was active was around the time he had sent me the last PM at 09:45. The next time he was on wasn't till 4-5 hours later. I also added him on skype/msn at this time which didn't gain any response.
[11:30-12:00] - PM'd Superman asking for advise thinking the account got hacked and I would be held responsible.
[16:47] - I see that he's online on Sythe, so I log on. He hasn't replied to my initial message asking about him being hacked, so I re-quote it and asked him what's going on.
[16:52-17:36] - The second lots of PM'd which can be seen in the OP. Basically me asking if he's going to pay me and him basically saying no.

Thanks for that.

In the first PM he sent me asking me to post on his thread was also the PM in which he sent me the username/password. So as far as I was aware he basically had accepted I would be doing the order and would be needing the post as a confirmation. This is why I replied with the PM saying I confirm I'm doing it and there's no need for the post, because to me that post would have just been a free bump. We then had the discussion about it, which basically ended with him logging. So as far as I was concerned I thought he had accepted that I wasn't going to post and had moved on.

I want to mention he never once said that if I didn't post he would change the pass and not let me do the order, which like you said if he wanted the post before I started then why did he send me the user/pass beforehand? Also, I would like to point out we discussed this over a 90 minute time period and not once thought to change the pass, he actually waited till I was midway through doing the order and had already logged of Sythe to change the pass meaning I had no contact with him.

Also, in regards to you being sympathetic. He claims because I didn't post on his thread confirming I can't be trusted. Taken into consideration I confirmed via the PM and if you look at my skilling service vouches I've been trusted with way more than the 500k his account was worth, there is no logical reason unless he wanted a free bump why I should have been forced to post. Hopefully the way he changed the pass and acted after will make you understand why I'm not as sympathetic as you.

The logical reason would be public verification, which is understandable. Like I said, I understand where he's coming from.

I was under the impression as basically the only thing we agreed on was I would the order for X amount, that it would be under the mods discretion how much would have to be paid given the circumstances. As there was no agreement of a partial payment for a partial service either.

Like I said above the only thing we agreed on was I would do account #5 which was 3000 iron bars & 500 bronze bars and quoting him he would "pay 500k when" I was "done smelting". There was no discussion about anything else, except the posting on the thread which never materialised as he logged before it could.

Typically in scenariors like this, unless specified otherwise, we just divide the total amount by the work done, which turns out to be 143k.

The fact is he changed the pass with no warning, didn't even let me know till 5 hours later and then out righted refused to pay me for what I had done. As far as I'm concerned if you rule in favour of him paying me the minimum of 143k (which he already had the chance to pay), you can simply close this report as to me that's the same as him getting away with what he did scot-free. Personally I was "done smelting" the moment he changed the pass, what's worse for me is he had the audacity to not even contact me and think he could just continue like if nothing had ever happened.

This case is really a misunderstanding. Had you have posted on his thread, do you think he would have changed the password? I don't think so. He interpreted your unwillingness to as suspicious behaviour, which isn't an unreasonable interpretation, so him changing his password isn't all that odd. That said, him giving you his information implies some sort of agreement, as you don't give out your account detail to random strangers. He obviously expected you to simply post on his thread, which is why he sent it with the same PM.

The only thing I could use to try and justify somewhere that changing the pass would mean I still get paid is if you look at my skilling service thread. I have a ToS there and if you look at number #8 ("By posting a order confirmation you agree to the ToS"), this would fall under him sending me his login details. Then at #2 ("You will not change your character's password until the service is finished"), that's the only substance I have in regards to a ToS beforehand. Then him changing the pass would've broke my ToS which means the service is made void and still being paid is implied. Obviously I doubt this last paragraph will merit anything, but it's the only thing that I have that can justify an agreement in regards to a payment due to the password change.

Did he agree to your ToS? If he did, then he'd have to pay the whole amount, but since if he didn't, we can't hold him liable for it.

I'd say he has to pay you 143k, but if you'd like to just ignore as you've stated above, then let me know and I'll close the report. In my opinion, this whole situation is a large misunderstanding; for future reference, if someone wants you to post on their thread for confirmation, you should go ahead and do it. It's not considered spam, it's just a form of security in a business transaction.

 

[Lazy23]

This case is really a misunderstanding. Had you have posted on his thread, do you think he would have changed the password? I don't think so. He interpreted your unwillingness to as suspicious behaviour, which isn't an unreasonable interpretation, so him changing his password isn't all that odd. That said, him giving you his information implies some sort of agreement, as you don't give out your account detail to random strangers. He obviously expected you to simply post on his thread, which is why he sent it with the same PM.

If I had posted on his thread when I was asked your right he probably wouldn't have changed the pass, then again given the fact he tried to say he could terminate my order earlier and claim the initial free offer does make me question this. However, even with that said any reasonable person would have PM'd me saying he was changing the pass and not letting me do the service because of the refusal to post on thread. I got nothing for five hours and the last thing as a skiller you want is the pass not working and you liable for the account.

Also, the fact still remains he logged out before I had posted on his thread which implies he had accepted the fact I wasn't going to post. It's not as if he sent me the user/pass/message saying to post and then logged, so he could actually argue he wasn't aware I wasn't going to post. We talked about it for 90 minutes and then he logged, so he knew perfectly well my stand when he logged that I wasn't planning to.

Plus I would like to point out at 16:42 he answered my PM with "Im just waiting for you to post on my thread", how can he even use that an excuse when the last message he sent me was at 09:45 saying "You cant just change my question around to be your reason for not posting. Its kind of the norm for people to post on the thread of the account that they are training". That last message was clearly still open to discussion before he decided to log.

Did he agree to your ToS? If he did, then he'd have to pay the whole amount, but since if he didn't, we can't hold him liable for it.

Well he might have seen my skilling service ToS during all this, however I can't be sure and yes he technically never said "he agreed" with it. But he did post on my skilling thread two months ago and I'm pretty sure I had my ToS up then, so technically he knew I had one.

Is it really my fault he didn't take the time to go look it up? If you can accept the fact I didn't have to directly link it to him, then I could argue like I did before that by him sending me the pass it's the same as confirming the order which implies he agrees to the ToS. Yes I know what I've just said will never hold, but it's the only thing that I could argue.

I'd say he has to pay you 143k, but if you'd like to just ignore as you've stated above, then let me know and I'll close the report.

Meh, might as well get the 143k then. Still think it's kind of bullshit considering I gave him the chance to pay the 143k in the first place and he's made me go down this avenue to get it.

In my opinion, this whole situation is a large misunderstanding; for future reference, if someone wants you to post on their thread for confirmation, you should go ahead and do it. It's not considered spam, it's just a form of security in a business transaction.

I would still have to disagree with you about this and the "public verification". As far as I'm concerned he logged out knowing I hadn't posted, so to me that shows he had accepted the fact I wasn't going to post, the fact used it later as the excuse is bullshit.

Also, the only time he would ever need to use a quote of me saying I was doing order X would be if I scammed him to prove I was doing the service. However, I already PM'd him saying I was doing it; so it would have just been the same thing twice and SPAM in my opinion. Does that mean every time I buy/sell gold I can say buying gold from X/selling gold to X? Pretty sure I would be banned within the hour if I did that.

Quoting him the actual reason he wanted it was because it's the "norm", which is opened to interpretation. The fact is he is referring to this norm that skillers post in-between their eight hour bumps saying they're doing X order, quoting prices or saying they've finished an order. I've already made a thread on this in which I was told by SuF "Abuse the system like everyone else does and you'll be on the same footing", so you know I'm sorry for not wanting to abuse the system and post useless comments to create an inflated artificial post count like everyone else.

Anyways, this will be my last post on this report in regards to this whole ordeal. If it's still not enough to warrant the 500k then fair enough, let HenrySpencer know he has to pay me the 143k in due course. I would also just like to take this time to say thanks for dealing with my report as I know it's been a pretty long read over such a minimal amount. So thanks, I appreciate the effort and time you've given.

 

[malakadang]

If I had posted on his thread when I was asked your right he probably wouldn't have changed the pass, then again given the fact he tried to say he could terminate my order earlier and claim the initial free offer does make me question this. However, even with that said any reasonable person would have PM'd me saying he was changing the pass and not letting me do the service because of the refusal to post on thread. I got nothing for five hours and the last thing as a skiller you want is the pass not working and you liable for the account.

He was probably trying to be a smart arse.

Also, the fact still remains he logged out before I had posted on his thread which implies he had accepted the fact I wasn't going to post. It's not as if he sent me the user/pass/message saying to post and then logged, so he could actually argue he wasn't aware I wasn't going to post. We talked about it for 90 minutes and then he logged, so he knew perfectly well my stand when he logged that I wasn't planning to.

I don't think logging out implies acceptance, if he truly did accept he would say it somewhere; I doubt after 90 minutes of conversing he had an epiphany and decided to show it to you by logging out.

Plus I would like to point out at 16:42 he answered my PM with "Im just waiting for you to post on my thread", how can he even use that an excuse when the last message he sent me was at 09:45 saying "You cant just change my question around to be your reason for not posting. Its kind of the norm for people to post on the thread of the account that they are training". That last message was clearly still open to discussion before he decided to log.

Well, it looks like he logged out because he had to go, and then hours later, he came back realizing that you hadn't posted on his thread. To me, that seems more likely than he logged out after an epiphany accepting that you wouldn't post, then throughout the day thought about it and said hey why haven't you posted.

Well he might have seen my skilling service ToS during all this, however I can't be sure and yes he technically never said "he agreed" with it. But he did post on my skilling thread two months ago and I'm pretty sure I had my ToS up then, so technically he knew I had one.

Seeing it is one thing, actually agreeing to it is another. Even if he agreed to it months ago, that, I'm presuming is a separate situation, and thus a separate agreement.

Is it really my fault he didn't take the time to go look it up? If you can accept the fact I didn't have to directly link it to him, then I could argue like I did before that by him sending me the pass it's the same as confirming the order which implies he agrees to the ToS. Yes I know what I've just said will never hold, but it's the only thing that I could argue.

I don't think you can imply an agreement in a contract. It's either specified for both parties, or it isn't. If he didn't explicitly agree to those terms, then they are largely irrelevant in this case.

Meh, might as well get the 143k then. Still think it's kind of bullshit considering I gave him the chance to pay the 143k in the first place and he's made me go down this avenue to get it.

I'll PM him.

I would still have to disagree with you about this and the "public verification". As far as I'm concerned he logged out knowing I hadn't posted, so to me that shows he had accepted the fact I wasn't going to post, the fact used it later as the excuse is bullshit.

Also, the only time he would ever need to use a quote of me saying I was doing order X would be if I scammed him to prove I was doing the service. However, I already PM'd him saying I was doing it; so it would have just been the same thing twice and SPAM in my opinion. Does that mean every time I buy/sell gold I can say buying gold from X/selling gold to X? Pretty sure I would be banned within the hour if I did that.

Security of mind. When I had my MMing thread way back, I would ask both parties to PM me, and post on my thread. Thus, I am sympathetic to this 'need' to have people post on their threads despite a PM. Some people would disagree, but to me that's how I see it, nevertheless, whatever his intentions, it is clear he wanted you to post it, you didn't, he didn't like it, so he changed his password.

Quoting him the actual reason he wanted it was because it's the "norm", which is opened to interpretation. The fact is he is referring to this norm that skillers post in-between their eight hour bumps saying they're doing X order, quoting prices or saying they've finished an order. I've already made a thread on this in which I was told by SuF "Abuse the system like everyone else does and you'll be on the same footing", so you know I'm sorry for not wanting to abuse the system and post useless comments to create an inflated artificial post count like everyone else.

The bumping rule has received a lot of controversy, that said, I really don't think that is abusing the system. To my knowledge, we don't mass infract when people say 'Confirmed that you are doing x service for me' or whatever.

Anyways, this will be my last post on this report in regards to this whole ordeal. If it's still not enough to warrant the 500k then fair enough, let HenrySpencer know he has to pay me the 143k in due course. I would also just like to take this time to say thanks for dealing with my report as I know it's been a pretty long read over such a minimal amount. So thanks, I appreciate the effort and time you've given.

No worries. I've PMed him, so hopefully he can respond and compensate you in a reasonable time; if not, I'll TwC him.

 

[malakadang]

Been resolved; Henry has paid Lazy the 143k.