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Feminism

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Just kind of curious as to what you guys think about feminism. I'm kind of torn on the issue myself as I see some major problem with feminist rhetoric however the general idea of gender equality is a good ideal. Some specific things I disagree with are that inequality that men experience is just as prevalent just in different forms. There isn't much else I really want to put in OP so i'll just let you guys get to it.

General feminism thread go
 
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Feminism has become one of those dual terms, because there is the literal definition and the social groups who label themselves as "feminists". Because equality of the sexes is a facet of a broader sense of human rights, the former has become redundant in most of the Western world because of legislation protecting equal rights.

The "social movement" definition of feminism/feminists, if you want to call it that, is just another extremist group using males as a scapegoat under the guise of equality for women. The entire notion is some absurd fallacy where somehow, women are oppressed, yet equal.
 
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Not every feminist is a feminazi, you know.

The feminist movement has been a huge joke from the start. Let's empower women and make them get a job, profit = made, 2x as many people to tax. When did you last hear a feminist speech where the main subject wasn't "men have to...". Link me a few if you don't mind.
 
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It's a movement that has gone radical. They had one strong point to their whole campaign, and that was the objectification of women. The portrayal of women being viewed as objects is unfortunately true, but irreversible.

There are three discrete movements of feminism commonly called waves.

As I understand it, broadly, the first wave was allegedly about equality under the law, the second wave was about a cultural shift against stay at home mothers, and the third wave has mostly been about equality of outcome ("socialism with panties").

However nothing is as it seems in these movements.

First wave feminism which is the only wave worthy of consideration in my opinion, is often cited as the reason women are able to vote. However what isn't common knowledge is that many women did not want the vote. This is because voting and conscription are seen as mutual obligations -- if you vote then you can be sent to war.

Equality under the law is a long held doctrine in the Western legal tradition, so it seems strange that approximately half the population would not be equal under the law. It is often cited by feminists that women had no rights to own property or their own bank accounts, etc. until the rise of feminism. This is incorrect. MARRIED women joined their rights to property with their husband to form a single legal personality -- unmarried women 'feme soles' enjoyed the same individual property rights as men. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coverture A woman who did not want to marry under law would be free to continue owning property in her own name. The restrictions were upon the legal status of 'a marriage' not on the rights of individuals.

In western legal systems (although incorrectly) the right to own property gives rise to legal obligations associated with property (mainly taxes) just as the right to vote supposedly gives rise to obligations with respect to war. What the feminist movement would like to keep secret is that women actually enjoyed additional protections under the law -- that when they chose to marry they no longer had to concern themselves with the ownership of property because this was delegated completely to the husband upon marriage (they joined their legal personalities into a single person under the law), and that they did not have to concern themselves with war because they were not eligible to be sent to war.
 
First wave feminism which is the only wave worthy of consideration in my opinion, is often cited as the reason women are able to vote. However what isn't common knowledge is that many women did not want the vote. This is because voting and conscription are seen as mutual obligations -- if you vote then you can be sent to war.

Might I ask why you largely discredit/ignore the aspect of activism for a cultural change (what you referred to as "second wave feminism")?
 
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Might I ask why you largely discredit/ignore the aspect of activism for a cultural change (what you referred to as "second wave feminism")?

Might I ask you why you largely discredit and ignore the flat earth society?

Is it because its premises are incorrect?

Second wave feminism holds that gender is a social construct and therefore X Y Z, etc.

Gender is not a social construct. It is a biological fact rooted in millions of years of evolution.

Next question.
 
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Modern feminism is a meritless philosophy. Every major talking point can be easily refuted. Basically turning nothing into something.
 
Might I ask you why you largely discredit and ignore the flat earth society?

Is it because its premises are incorrect?

Second wave feminism holds that gender is a social construct and therefore X Y Z, etc.

Gender is not a social construct. It is a biological fact rooted in millions of years of evolution.

Next question.

I completely agree, gender is not a social construct. Inequality of women and inferior social status based on gender is a social construct. One which, when fully acknowledged, served as a catalyst for housewives and mothers to act against predetermined social roles and root for a cultural paradigm shift.

Note: Please don't misinterpret the tone of this conversation. I concur that modern feminism is a movement that has gone far beyond its roots and original intentions and become a, more or less, empty movement. Simply playing devil's advocate here for the sake of exploring all possible angles and opinions.
 
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Modern feminism is complete bullshit. It's based on theory that is unverifiable and unfalsifiable which means it is not scientific and can be ignored and discarded without any thought.
 
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I see most of you lean towards feminism being bullshit so I guess I should ask what are some issues you guys think need to be addressed?

Personally I think that one major issue is the way illegitimate children are handled. I think that if two people who are not married have a bastard child the man should not be legally responsible in any way for that child.
 
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I see most of you lean towards feminism being bullshit so I guess I should ask what are some issues you guys think need to be addressed?

Personally I think that one major issue is the way illegitimate children are handled. I think that if two people who are not married have a bastard child the man should not be legally responsible in any way for that child.

Both parents are equally responsible but both should be equally able to bow out permanently from the child.
 
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I see most of you lean towards feminism being bullshit so I guess I should ask what are some issues you guys think need to be addressed?

Personally I think that one major issue is the way illegitimate children are handled. I think that if two people who are not married have a bastard child the man should not be legally responsible in any way for that child.

Atm the woman can dump the child at any point no question asked, but if she decides to keep it then she can milk the man for the next 18+ years. So I have to agree with your point. A man should have an option to give up on all of his rights towards the child and by doing that not having to pay any alimony. That would be a fair thing to do but women would never agreed to this just as a farmer would never agree with setting his cattle free.
 
Atm the woman can dump the child at any point no question asked, but if she decides to keep it then she can milk the man for the next 18+ years. So I have to agree with your point. A man should have an option to give up on all of his rights towards the child and by doing that not having to pay any alimony. That would be a fair thing to do but women would never agreed to this just as a farmer would never agree with setting his cattle free.

It takes two to create life. You want to erase a factor in the production to satisfy a specific group. How exactly is that fair?
 
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I completely agree, gender is not a social construct. Inequality of women and inferior social status based on gender is a social construct.

This is just factually inaccurate.

Women have historically had more rights under the law than do men, and certainly today they have numerous additional rights under the law. As for their social status, they also tend to have higher social status on average (but not always) than do males of the same age, until they reach say 35.

One which, when fully acknowledged, served as a catalyst for housewives and mothers to act against predetermined social roles and root for a cultural paradigm shift.

Propaganda served as a catalyst to convince women that raising their children properly (you know -- in accordance with objective biology) made them inadequate and that they should seek employment and leave their children for up to 12 hours a day in the care of strangers. This is a different thing.

Note: Please don't misinterpret the tone of this conversation. I concur that modern feminism is a movement that has gone far beyond its roots and original intentions and become a, more or less, empty movement. Simply playing devil's advocate here for the sake of exploring all possible angles and opinions.

It's roots are nonsense. If you read legal history you will discover that feme-soles (unmarried women) had the same rights as unmarried men. It was the institution of marriage which was to blame for joining the legal personalities of men and women.

Further, logically speaking, can you give credibility to any theory which proposes that there is a secret hierarchy of men called 'the patriarchy' which has always ruled all of humankind, when one of the most often complained about western periods (1800-1900) was ruled by the iron fist of Queen Victoria?
 
It's roots are nonsense. If you read legal history you will discover that feme-soles (unmarried women) had the same rights as unmarried men. It was the institution of marriage which was to blame for joining the legal personalities of men and women.
What of the right to vote?
 
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It takes two to create life. You want to erase a factor in the production to satisfy a specific group. How exactly is that fair?

Women have the option to opt out, men don't. How is giving men the same option satisfing a specific group and not making it equal? Women choose the men not the other way around. Getting pregnant from the right man is pretty much like winning a loto since you are set for life. Do you really think this is okay? A man will almost never say "no" to a woman because we are just built like that. It's the job of the woman to find the right man. But atm a woman can choose any man because she knows that the state has her back. This is unfair and has to change!
 
Women have the option to opt out, men don't. How is giving men the same option satisfing a specific group and not making it equal? Women choose the men not the other way around. Getting pregnant from the right man is pretty much like winning a loto since you are set for life. Do you really think this is okay? A man will almost never say "no" to a woman because we are just built like that. It's the job of the woman to find the right man. But atm a woman can choose any man because she knows that the state has her back. This is unfair and has to change!

Women have the option to opt out because they're the one bearing the child within. They will always have the advantage in deciding whether the child lives on, or dies. You want to blame women for manipulation? We're blinded by lust, and this is the unfortunate price we have to pay. The laws need to be more lenient towards the fathers, but other than that it's tough luck. Want to avoid all of this? Have males be more protective.
 
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