Everyone is a libertarian

You all already believe that murder, theft, rape, and slavery are wrong. You're all libertarians already. Forget all the nonsense arguments. Just apply the values you already hold to your life and to your beliefs. That's all you need to do. Just be honest, just be consistent.

The grand libertarian speech:
*clears throat*
"THEFT AND MURDER ARE WRONG"
"thank you"
*sits down*

 

[Tgump]

The grand libertarian speech:
*clears throat*
"THEFT AND MURDER ARE WRONG"
"thank you"
*sits down*

Stolen from conversation! You dog, you!

On a related note, in a totalitarian society, the government would take both this thread and and my property, and then shoot me.

 

[Bring Me The Horizon]

You all already believe that murder, theft, rape, and slavery are wrong. You're all libertarians already. Forget all the nonsense arguments. Just apply the values you already hold to your life and to your beliefs. That's all you need to do. Just be honest, just be consistent.

The grand libertarian speech:
*clears throat*
"THEFT AND MURDER ARE WRONG"
"thank you"
*sits down*

So should I believe it's right to take what is not mines? Have sex with someone who's unwilling? Kill someone who's life I don't have the right to take?

Edit: I'm not being a smart ass, I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying. I don't know if this is more of a statement then a discussion waiting to be started.

 

[TheRavenKing]

You all already believe that murder, theft, rape, and slavery are wrong. You're all libertarians already. Forget all the nonsense arguments. Just apply the values you already hold to your life and to your beliefs. That's all you need to do. Just be honest, just be consistent.

The grand libertarian speech:
*clears throat*
"THEFT AND MURDER ARE WRONG"
"thank you"
*sits down*

Eh, not really. Libertarian philosophy goes far beyond ''normal'' morality. Also, while libertarians are quite happy to acknowledge the property rights of ordinary citizens, they are less willing to acknowledge the state's right to exist. So while an ordinary citizen's property rights are recognised their fellow citizens, the government's ownership of the country seemingly cannot be recognized by other governments. This seems totally inconsistant to me.

While certain ''less extreme'' libertarians will acknowledge that governments are indeed necessary for society to function, they too will make issue of the means of funding said government's operations: taxation. Libertarians will cry out until their tongue is black about how the government is sending ''men with guns'' around to their houses to steal money off them. This is where yet another fallacy lies.

Taxation is not theft. When you became resident in the country you live in, you automatically agreed to be bound by that country's laws, social contract. Part of this of course is the tax code. Of course, if you are a child, your parents decide this for you. When you become an adult, if you dislike the taxation/legal system in your country, you can emigrate. It's like when you buy a CD, you are bound by the copyright. Don't like the copyright? Well you bought the wrong CD... Trade it in and get a new one with a less restrictive copyright attached to it.

So yeah, libertarian philosophy has a lot of moral fallacies in it. A lot of what libertarians claim are ''theft'' aren't really theft at all, when you examine them closely.

 

[wombakage]

So should I believe it's right to take what is not mines? Have sex with someone who's unwilling? Kill someone who's life I don't have the right to take?

Edit: I'm not being a smart ass, I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying. I don't know if this is more of a statement then a discussion waiting to be started.

What he is saying it that libertarianism is more of a basic set of beliefs then political ideology.

I think

I agree though, libertarianism is incredibly redundant and simple. Small government = Let me have a gun and not pay taxes on anything.

 

So should I believe it's right to take what is not mines? Have sex with someone who's unwilling? Kill someone who's life I don't have the right to take?

Edit: I'm not being a smart ass, I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying. I don't know if this is more of a statement then a discussion waiting to be started.

What are you asking? Are you asking if it's moral to have morals?

 

Eh, not really. Libertarian philosophy goes far beyond ''normal'' morality.

In what way?

Also, while libertarians are quite happy to acknowledge the property rights of ordinary citizens, they are less willing to acknowledge the state's right to exist. So while an ordinary citizen's property rights are recognised their fellow citizens, the government's ownership of the country seemingly cannot be recognized by other governments. This seems totally inconsistant to me.

Can you prove to me that a state exists, and that it can ask for its rights?

Taxation is not theft. When you became resident in the country you live in, you automatically agreed to be bound by that country's laws, social contract.

Firstly would you agree that taxation is theft if taxation is not part of a legal contract? Secondly, can you show me a copy of this alleged legal contract, with my signature on it?

 

[Bring Me The Horizon]

What are you asking? Are you asking if it's moral to have morals?

I'm just wondering what discussion you're trying to create. It seems that you've just told us a fact rather than a opinion to discuss.

 

[R33l2r3al]

I'm just wondering what discussion you're trying to create. It seems that you've just told us a fact rather than a opinion to discuss.

Regardless of whether or not I agree with the statement, he did post something as if it were a fact.

"Everyone is a libertarian"

Not exactly an open-ended statement is it?

 

I'm just wondering what discussion you're trying to create. It seems that you've just told us a fact rather than a opinion to discuss.

I am. Libertarianism is not a political ideology, it is just a statement of moral values. It is no more a political ideology than atheism is a religious ideology.

You already have libertarian morals, you are already a libertarian. You just need to apply the morals you already hold consistently. Both in your life, and in your other beliefs. You just need to be consistent.

 

[R33l2r3al]

I am. Libertarianism is not a political ideology, it is just a statement of moral values.

You already have libertarian morals, you are already a libertarian. You just need to apply the morals you already hold consistently in your life.

How would you differentiate someone with authoritarian values versus libertarian values then? They are different.

 

[Tgump]

How would you differentiate someone with authoritarian values versus libertarian values then? They are different.

How would you not? Authoritarianism holds power in a dictator who gives the ruled some degree of freedom, while libertarian philosophy, at its core, is "no hitting and my stuff is my stuff". Governments, throughout history, have violated both of these values.

 

Whose to say I think murder is wrong? We are all animals, we don't know what right or wrong means, only what we believe is right and wrong.

 

How would you differentiate someone with authoritarian values versus libertarian values then? They are different.

The same way that you do now. No one wants to interact with a pathological liar or psychopath, and these people are a tiny percentage of the population, so why is it an issue?

Whose to say I think murder is wrong? We are all animals, we don't know what right or wrong means, only what we believe is right and wrong.

Well why are you interested in ethics at all, if we are just animals and ethics is subjective? Why do people make up grandiose moral justifications for almost everything they do if no one is interested in ethics? Why would anyone put any energy whatever into ethical debates, discussions or thought?

Wouldn't you just stop debating right now and go steal whatever isn't nailed down if what you're saying is true? You already know you're not going to get caught. Only 10% of property crimes are solved by the government's own numbers. It's probably more like 1%.

 

[R33l2r3al]

How would you not? Authoritarianism holds power in a dictator who gives the ruled some degree of freedom, while libertarian philosophy, at its core, is "no hitting and my stuff is my stuff". Governments, throughout history, have violated both of these values.

The same way that you do now. No one wants to interact with a pathological liar or psychopath, and these people are a tiny percentage of the population, so why is it an issue?

I'm saying, that if your statement "Everyone is a libertarian" is true, then there would be no authoritarians, but that's not the case. Authoritarians are clearly different.

 

I'm saying, that if your statement "Everyone is a libertarian" is true, then there would be no authoritarians, but that's not the case. Authoritarians are clearly different.

Well yes. It should be prefaced with (practically) everyone is a libertarian, but it makes a better point this way.

It's not controversial to say dogs have four legs, even though some are born with 5, and some have one cut off by a cruel owner. So why should this be different?

Children are born libertarians and are abused into authoritarians. And they are born scientists and abused into mystics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIDvdzjzSto

 

[Tgump]

I'm saying, that if your statement "Everyone is a libertarian" is true, then there would be no authoritarians, but that's not the case. Authoritarians are clearly different.

Okay, not everyone is a libertarian. Many people already believe that murder, theft, rape, and so on, are immoral; being consistent with these beliefs is all you need to be a core libertarian.

 

[R33l2r3al]

Well yes. It should be prefaced with (practically) everyone is a libertarian, but it makes a better point this way.

It's not controversial to say dogs have four legs, even though some are born with 5, and some have one cut off by a cruel owner. So why should this be different?
Psychopathology is most likely either brought about by genetic abnormality or by really nasty child abuse.


Children are born libertarians and are abused into authoritarians. And they are born scientists and abused into mystics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIDvdzjzSto

I'm not saying I don't agree, I'm just pointing out that the "fact" you're claiming is not entirely true in its current form.

On a side note, wouldn't an extreme libertarian argue that those who are authoritarians have the right to that set of beliefs? After all, libertarians desire maximum freedom (as should any rational person in my opinion).

 

[Tgump]

On a side note, wouldn't an extreme libertarian argue that those who are authoritarians have the right to that set of beliefs? After all, libertarians desire maximum freedom (as should any rational person in my opinion).

Of course. You are welcome to go build your own city/nation/government/etc and invite any that you want in, providing that you do not infringe upon their rights.

 

On a side note, wouldn't an extreme libertarian argue that those who are authoritarians have the right to that set of beliefs? After all, libertarians desire maximum freedom (as should any rational person in my opinion).

You can believe what ever you want. This mean your beliefs are subjective and don't matter. You can believe that gravity doesn't exist and jump off a cliff. Likewise you can believe in nation-states and the moral justifications for war, and come home a PTSD miserable lump of flesh, broken and suicidal.

Moral behaviour is the core health requirement for the human mind, in the same way exercise and nutrition are the core health requirements for the rest of your body. You can choose not to apply ethics in your life just as you can choose not to follow medical science, but you will end up unhappy in the first instance and unhealthy in the second.

If you don't believe me then go try it for yourself. Go steal something, shoot someone's dog, push a kid over. See how you feel.