Doran items?

[Midden]

I like doran's items, but I hate the fact you they don't build into anything.
What are your thoughts? And what are your alternatives if you do?

I usually go long sword for top if not doran's blade(depending on champ).

Mid I usually go doran's ring unless yasuo, then I go doran's blade.
Don't really know adc or ap yet.

Support I normally to Farie charm, so I can get wards and gold.

Am looking for alternatives so seeing what you guys suggest and/or use.

 

[KerokeroCola]

All three Doran's items mean you're basically able to stay in lane until you successfully gank or get ganked. They provide a lot of strong trading potential for the gold investment, and the sustain is also an important aspect of the items.

Cost-per-stat, all three Doran's items should actually be worth from 500 to 650 gold. There is a reason they are so cheap, but don't build into anything. The gold is intended to be invested into a safer and more impactful laning phase.

With the price reductions, I get Doran's on basically every champion I play. As a mid caster, for example, the 15 AP allows for significantly more trading potential (compared with going something like Faerie charm/pots). The 3MP5 and 3 mana per kill means approximately 6 MP5 total, which is substantial for maintaining a good mana pool.


Also, don't discount their HP bonuses. +80 HP on a Doran's Blade means your ADC starts the game with 20% more HP. This is a substantial advantage when the meta is full of all-in trades during lane. If you ever won a fight (or managed to escape) with Doran's and less than 80 HP, thank your lucky stars that you bought the item.


Hell, Doran's are so cost effective that supports often build Doran's Shield to start with. The 8 damage reduction essentially is a 20% armor boost early game, and the 10 HP5/100 HP means your support is tanky as hell.

 

[Midden]

Damn, I might have to do a doran's shield on allistar.

 

[KerokeroCola]

Any melee support should be building it because they can get autoattack harrassed really strongly during the first few levels. Since the lane is essentially won or lost at levels 2 & 3 for most games nowadays, having a Doran's on both members of the lane really increases the potential to win that level 2 or level 3 skirmish.

The downside to building Dorans Shield is you can't get a level 1 ward, but if you both take a warding trinket and pay attention to jungle timers, you shouldn't be getting ganked anyway.

 

[m_yutaka]

They're really essential for your early laning, especially also when you face more higher elo lane opponents :O

I would say a max on 2 dorans, 3 if you're REALLY BEHIND (genja style)

 

[KerokeroCola]

As mid I like to get double Doran's because the added MP5 is really nice. It's also something that doesn't usually show up in my build, so I feel pressured to get it over with early game so I can focus on a real build. However, as any other laner, double stacking them isn't usually worth it. You might as well get started on your build. The only time I'd go double doran's other than mid is as an ADC who is badly losing trades.

Doran's essentially means better laning but slightly worse late-game. If you are having a hard time in lane, get double doran's.


I also sometimes get both Doran's Shield and Doran's Blade when I play autoattack-based tops, such as Shen or Olaf.

 

[Chlue]

Dorans shield is kind of broken atm tbh, you can't be pushed out of lane

 

[Panda-Splosion]

I see next to no value in the Dorans items except for the ring, and maybe the shield in certain situations.

I mean like people could disagree, but this is my personal reasoning/preference.

Dorans Ring - Very useful. Hands down a must in nearly all AP mid champions. No exceptions, self-explanatory.

Dorans Blade - Worthless. Since they nerfed it to +3HP/auto and decreased longsword to 360 gold, I don't see it as viable as a sustain build for ADCs, especially since it doesn't build into anything. I don't really feel like doing exact math, but when you think about it, it doesn't provide as much sustain as longsword + 3 red pots. A red pot regens 150HP each I believe, meaning 3 red pots give 450HP regen. In order to get the same regen from a blade means you would need at least 100+ autoes or something like that. Even if you autoed away and pushed your lane, considering your champion attack speed, you still won't regen as fast as popping a red pot. When considering trades, the +3HP gained per auto will still not regen you as fast as a red pot. The +80HP is nifty, but easily becomes negligible. Best of all, if you're behind, you could just simply buy 3 longswords (or 4 if you're playing like Ezreal or something) since it could build into LW, BOTRK, BT, TF, etc whereas buying a second (or even 3rd) dorans sword will provide you the stats/sustain, but sacrifices your build. I usually buy 3 longswords if I can't afford a BF straight away since even though it gives you less AD, it still provides comparable stats at a cheaper price.

I mean like this is easily arguable depending on preference, but I always personally buy 2-3 red pots and 1-2 mana pots on each back depending on how much gold I have left over. Just purchasing those pots easily made their worth back in gold and some more. Saved my life countless times, and provided me the regen to bait kills when they try to chase or when I juke out and decide to go back in. At least once a game it's done either one of the two for me.

Dorans Shield - I don't like this item in the slightest, never bought it before in my life. However, I can see the usefulness in it on certain champions for the regen/HP purposes but this is probably strictly based on preference.

Edit: Oh, and for anybody saying the regen on doran's shield is broken, it's really not considering the fact they do not stack and you can only purchase 1 pot and the +10HP/5 (I forget what exactly). If they ever start dorans shield + 1 pot, I just go balls to the wall aggressive level 1 since I usually start with at least 3 red pots. All you need to do is establish early lane dominance and the only thing they can do for regen is to sit behind minions to leech XP/wait for regen.

It sort of makes a lot more sense in my head since I'm supposing I have a different playstyle from others, but it's just what I think

 

[m_yutaka]

I see next to no value in the Dorans items except for the ring, and maybe the shield in certain situations.

I mean like people could disagree, but this is my personal reasoning/preference.

Dorans Ring - Very useful. Hands down a must in nearly all AP mid champions. No exceptions, self-explanatory.

Dorans Blade - Worthless. Since they nerfed it to +3HP/auto and decreased longsword to 360 gold, I don't see it as viable as a sustain build for ADCs, especially since it doesn't build into anything. I don't really feel like doing exact math, but when you think about it, it doesn't provide as much sustain as longsword + 3 red pots. A red pot regens 150HP each I believe, meaning 3 red pots give 450HP regen. In order to get the same regen from a blade means you would need at least 100+ autoes or something like that. Even if you autoed away and pushed your lane, considering your champion attack speed, you still won't regen as fast as popping a red pot. When considering trades, the +3HP gained per auto will still not regen you as fast as a red pot. The +80HP is nifty, but easily becomes negligible. Best of all, if you're behind, you could just simply buy 3 longswords (or 4 if you're playing like Ezreal or something) since it could build into LW, BOTRK, BT, TF, etc whereas buying a second (or even 3rd) dorans sword will provide you the stats/sustain, but sacrifices your build. I usually buy 3 longswords if I can't afford a BF straight away since even though it gives you less AD, it still provides comparable stats at a cheaper price.

I mean like this is easily arguable depending on preference, but I always personally buy 2-3 red pots and 1-2 mana pots on each back depending on how much gold I have left over. Just purchasing those pots easily made their worth back in gold and some more. Saved my life countless times, and provided me the regen to bait kills when they try to chase or when I juke out and decide to go back in. At least once a game it's done either one of the two for me.

Dorans Shield - I don't like this item in the slightest, never bought it before in my life. However, I can see the usefulness in it on certain champions for the regen/HP purposes but this is probably strictly based on preference.

You have to wait for the health to actually regen..
Lifesteal quints?
Early all-ins?
In higher elo (at least I do), I just take advantage of the fact that they have 80 less health than me early on.

 

[Panda-Splosion]

Pretty much everyone goes all in level 2-3, it's just how it is nowadays.

And to actually wait for the health to regen from a pot, it's much more beneficial than autoing a minion and regenerating that way.

As for lifesteal quints, I don't like them at all. I tested them out verse flat AD quints and it's not as beneficial in my opinion.

I guess everyone has different preferences as to what they like to do and what works better for them.

 

[KerokeroCola]

Play against people with equal (or higher) skill, and your longsword will make you lose the lane 7 out of 10 times. The 80 HP is incredibly significant. That's a 3 autoattack advantage on you. It's also a 20% increase in your level-3 HP pool. Considering that, as a support main, I win my lane 8 out of 10 times simply because my ADC gets a level 3 first blood in almost every game, the extra 80 HP makes a huge difference between winning and losing.

Plus, you should be able to stay in lane until 1550 gold at least, which is usually around 7-8 minutes. This means sustaining through (usually) one gank and dozens of trades. Autoattacking at least 12 times per wave, that's 36 HP per wave, 62 HP per minute, totalling 500 HP before you back. In addition to the +80 it gives that's about 580 HP in sustain, which way out-classes the extra two potions you get from Longsword.



The same thing goes with 4% lifesteal quints. Against an equally-skilled (or better) opponent, you need to have the ability to survive through trades. Again, 12 autos per wave is about 600 damage... with 4% lifesteal that's about 24 HP regen per wave. It may not seem like much, but remember that 12 autos is practically minimal. The meta is not just "wait for a last hit;" I usually end up sending 15-20 autos per wave at a minimum.




Lastly, the Doran's Shield is OP AS FUCK. 10 HP5 is equivalent to 360 gold worth of items. You're trying to tell me that 100 HP and 8 damage reduction (about 20% at early levels) is NOT worth 40 gold???

 

[EliteEloBoosts]

Yeah so many cases when having that extra 50-100 hp will be the difference in winning the lane, you really can't go wrong buying 1 or two simply because you have the extra room for so long.

 

[Panda-Splosion]

I don't know why people think "play with equal or higher skill" isn't automatically assumed. Like I don't even understand how Riot can consistently match you up with people who are lower skilled than you if you keep winning. Shouldn't their algorithm naturally at least try to match you with others just as good if not better?

I mean like if you want to throw item stats around then that's good for you, but it comes down to performance.

Like I said, item builds/starts is a matter of preference.

And if you don't believe me, here's my own play records. And of course, the personal throws/dces because my own team pisses me off, etc count as losses too (which actually happens a lot more often than one would think).

If something works for you, then good for you. There's nothing to say what works for me doesn't work.

Keep on copying what pro players do or whatever the meta is. How do you think the meta is always changed? It's by players pulling off shit that nobody else does.

 

[KerokeroCola]

Your stubbornness is disappointing, but a stopped clock is right twice a day. Do the simple math with Doran's and you'll see that they are all 120% efficient or more.


Also 1104 kills and 8 of them are quadra kills.... doesn't seem like you play adc a whole lot

 

[Panda-Splosion]

Your stubbornness is disappointing, but a stopped clock is right twice a day. Do the simple math with Doran's and you'll see that they are all 120% efficient or more.


Also 1104 kills and 8 of them are quadra kills.... doesn't seem like you play adc a whole lot

Mid is my preference but I'm also quite adept with ADC.

Honestly, how often would you even get triples/quadras/pentas anyway if the game lasts longer than 25mins?

I'm not stubborn over whether or not Dorans is a good item choice to start out with, I'm just simply pointing out there are different options which are just as good.

You can't deny that and claim I'm talking out of my ass either.

 

[KerokeroCola]

Yeah you're right to a degree on a lot of things. At least you're not saying go Boots/pots every game like in season 2. It is, to a degree, up to preference, but I simply think that the same player will play 20% better for the first 5 minutes with a Doran's. After an item or two is built, Doran's is worthless, but getting Doran's really helps you get to that point.

 

[Panda-Splosion]

Yeah you're right to a degree on a lot of things. At least you're not saying go Boots/pots every game like in season 2. It is, to a degree, up to preference, but I simply think that the same player will play 20% better for the first 5 minutes with a Doran's. After an item or two is built, Doran's is worthless, but getting Doran's really helps you get to that point.

Dorans ring is a mandatory like 98% of the time so I'm assuming this is a debate over Dorans blade.

If you're strictly speaking in terms of the first few mins then yes, Dorans blade is probably the best start. However, I personally like scaling as I can always play it safe or out-kite/poke if they choose to go all-in early levels, or I can simply choose the moment when I wish to go all-in myself. I just simply feel that starting longsword/3pot start is best. In exchange for giving up 80 starting HP, I gain the ability to build it into whatever I wish and the 80HP becomes negligible anyway a few levels in because of lane dominance.

I mean like, if it helps you win then by all means, go for it You could start boots and all mana pots or whatever if you always win with it.

 

[PijaVenosa]

The doran's items have 3 things in common:
They provide sustain.
They provide health.
They don't build into anything.

The third is a minor disadvantage that doesn't even begin to counteract the huge benefits they provide.
Health is the most effective stat you can buy early game at base gold values.As kero said, doran's provide about 20% of your HP early in the game. If 2 champions, one with a Doran item and one with it's equivalent (Longsword, book or ruby crystal), the champion with the doran item will always have an advantage.

But let's look at each item individually.
Doran's Ring: We can all agree that this item is the best early game item. The stats it provides are monstrous, if your champ scales with AP and uses mana, then doran's ring is definitely the best item, even champs like katarina should buy this item. There is no better option.

Doran's Blade: In s4, this item has been nerfed and longsword has been buffed, however this doesn't mean LS and 3pots is better. It almost never is, unless you have almost no way of dying. The health difference gives too much of an advantage, and the sustain from the passive quickly offsets the pot advantage. On ADCs it is a sin not to buy this as a first item, but stacking 3Doran blades has lost effectiveness.

Doran's Shield: This item was thought out for Melee champs. It was also thought out to counter poking. If you are a melee character soloing against a ranged character, this item is always the better choice, the only exception is if your character is a burster, in which case you can go either of the other doran's.
Also note that the passive stacks additively, meaning that if you get to buy 5 and your opponent doesn't counter by buying AD, his autoattacks will be very weak, if you are a character like trynda or sion, his autoattacks will do 0 damage. The advantage of stacking is huge, however this advantage degrades when the opponent buys enough AD to do damage.

Every Doran item is a snowballing item, you should buy them if you have an early lead, but buy no more than 3 Rings/blades they don't stack that nicely and losing inventory space means that building items have less beneficial building paths or a loss of warding space. Snowballing with 5 Doran's shields and tabis is still an effective strategy against autoattackers though.

List of champs who can chose not to buy Doran items as first buy.
Every jungle except fiddlesticks.
Every support except Hecarim.
Mundo (Cloth5).
Nidalee (pots ward and Faerie charm)
...

That's it.

 

[PijaVenosa]

If you're strictly speaking in terms of the first few mins then yes, Dorans blade is probably the best start. However, I personally like scaling as I can always play it safe or out-kite/poke if they choose to go all-in early levels, or I can simply choose the moment when I wish to go all-in myself. I just simply feel that starting longsword/3pot start is best. In exchange for giving up 80 starting HP, I gain the ability to build it into whatever I wish and the 80HP becomes negligible anyway a few levels in because of lane dominance.

It's not like having a bloodthirster and boots is dominating over someone who has bloodthirster and doran's blade.
There are few moments where LS+3 pots start has advantage over DB+1pot.
For example, bloodthirster vs BF sword Vampiric scepter and Doran's blade.
Every other moment of the matchup, the one who started DB+1pot has a great advantage in items.
You are also forgetting that the one who is likely to dominate is the one with the doran's blade. As you said, you are trying to play safe with longsword and 3 pots, trying to wait it out until his advantage becomes insignifcant so you can then be a longsword ahead of his build.
In terms of lane dominance 80 extra HP on your opponent is probably going to cost you enough minions for you to lose 400gold. And probably an early kill for your opponent which loses you a lot of gold and gives the opponent much more gold.
As an adc a doran's blade start isn't even close. Try to propose a top or mid matchup where we might consider longsword over doran's blade.

 

[Panda-Splosion]

It's not like having a bloodthirster and boots is dominating over someone who has bloodthirster and doran's blade.
There are few moments where LS+3 pots start has advantage over DB+1pot.
For example, bloodthirster vs BF sword Vampiric scepter and Doran's blade.
Every other moment of the matchup, the one who started DB+1pot has a great advantage in items.
You are also forgetting that the one who is likely to dominate is the one with the doran's blade. As you said, you are trying to play safe with longsword and 3 pots, trying to wait it out until his advantage becomes insignifcant so you can then be a longsword ahead of his build.
In terms of lane dominance 80 extra HP on your opponent is probably going to cost you enough minions for you to lose 400gold. And probably an early kill for your opponent which loses you a lot of gold and gives the opponent much more gold.
As an adc a doran's blade start isn't even close. Try to propose a top or mid matchup where we might consider longsword over doran's blade.

This is speaking from the viewpoint that you lost lane from the minute you stepped into it.