Dispute -- On behalf of lebgh0st

This dispute is being posted on behalf of @lebgh0st


Please note, @lebgh0st is currently banned because he requested to be banned and also mentioned he is willing to work things out outside of the 50% ruling that he is disputing. This is the complete dispute below:

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Report link: Reporting UKF/Lebgh0st - $2,500+Half a Year of Time

TLDR -- I completed development of a web site for Bert. He left positive feedback for me, it was done in August 2020. In September, he changed his mind and wanted a re-design, so he ordered the design from Jason and asked me to implement it. There was a disagreement on payment and timeline for implementation of new design, which is clearly in addition to the completed work. Bert as a result made claims without evidence. I was asked to refund 50% which makes no sense to me, and I believe this ruling was made incorrectly for many reasons explained below.

I am asking that the staff take a second look, and ask Pirate not be involved in this dispute as I believe he mishandled this to a great degree. Please scroll down to the bottom for more information*


Issue #1 -- Lack of Evidence.
Bert made many claims without proof, and it seems like the staff(s) involved considered this non-evidence when making their decision. I am the one providing most the evidence, even for Bert, I am the one that showed proof of Bert's payment, not Bert, and Bert wasn't even asked for any evidence, only I was constantly asked for different evidence by staff (Pirate.) This is unfair.

Highlights of the initial report by Bert below.

Bert makes a lot of claims here without evidence. A screenshot included here below, which outlines the trade: it includes a full website, payment gateways, and design. Notice how this says design, not designs. Payment gateways, more than one. Design, not plural. This was all delivered, even the design. It makes no claims of guaranteed satisfaction, unlimited design implementations, or years of support. The rest of the report is mainly hearsay regarding other people and not Bert.

Spoiler

Bert continued to make claims, without evidence. I did offer, out of courtesy, to waive the fee for the design implementation but Bert did not accept. Therefore, the offer was retracted. Bert never posted evidence of me agreeing to a strict timeline or promising these things for free.


Issue #2 -- My terms ignored
I have some general terms on my selling thread, that I've used for all my website development trades. Staff did not consider this, and said it is invalid because Bert (without evidence) claimed there were other terms. If there are other terms, he should present it.

I do not understand what more is required on my end or why I was told that by allegedly being friendly with Bert how there was therefore not a valid contract/ToS/expectation. I do not understand why being friendly would change things, I discuss this more in the section about Pirate at the bottom of this thread, but essentially a big part of the ruling was that we trusted eachother more than usual because we were friends, I never knew Bert before he contacted me for the website. This is very clear if you look at how Bert messaged me first.

My thread: #1 Sythe Competitive Web Developer - Created 15+ websites - BoostedMMO/YetiGP & Many more

Relevant Highlights:

As per above, there are no refunds if a deposit is made, or full amount is paid. Bert paid the deposit, and then the rest of the amount. I also mention additional charges should I be requested to change a part that was already finished. The design implementation was already finished, it is reasonable for me to add an additional charge here.

And per below, the ETA is only approximate. It is not guaranteed.

My terms were ignored, I mentioned them in my first reply to the report:
Reporting UKF/Lebgh0st - $2,500+Half a Year of Time

Pirate requested evidence of Bert agreeing to the terms, with burden of proof shifting to me even though I am the one being reported and there should be evidence against me for a conviction. Bert asks for a screenshot agreeing to the terms, yet he offers no alternative proof of what modified terms there were so it should be clear it is the default information posted on my thread, that I’ve used for everyone. If he didn’t agree, why would he make a payment?

This is clearly “deemed acceptance of a contract.” This is common sense and essentially part of the law, I am quoting from a legal information website:

The thread was clearly linked to Bert near the beginning of our conversation:

Spoiler

Moderators, feel free to check edit history for the thread if you can, it is not modified, the information was always there. There is no way Bert missed this as it was how he located me. Otherwise, if you disagree, then it is up to Bert to present the terms he believes he accepted with evidence. He needs to provide evidence of what he was promised. He did not.


Issue #3 -- Bert clearly vouched for me/project was done
Please also see Bert’s vouch for me, notice how he states I made a website for him, very easy to work with, and no trouble accommodating his needs:

Spoiler

I've delivered the project and he was satisfied with it and left a vouch as well. The trade was over, he got what was promised, then later on he changed his mind in a couple weeks. He also posted this positive feedback on my thread where I outlined the terms. Later on Bert deleted this, after the report against me maybe in an effort to lie, either way it is shady to me.

The website was fully deployed and functional, and it was modified by Bert to make it look as if I never delivered the website (some proof in this thread of the finished work), the droplet was either destroyed as well to make it seem that I never hooked anything to it.

I've never promised or said lifetime support for any of my projects, we never know when we're going to die. Again, it is up to Bert to have evidence of what I promised. At most and out of my own generosity I may make very small bug fixes/critical fixes/hotfixes, not infinite amount of free features, this is a know fact by any company/individual in the field.

Issue #4 -- This is an isolated incident, clearly an issue with Bert, not me
People can vouch for me, I have successfully completed so many projects, it is Bert that is the problematic person here, not me. I would like to point out that I've done around 25+ websites in the past 1-2 years on Sythe since I started over here.

Please, check all my feedback on my thread. I have done websites for @Grant @Jacky @Mots @Fyndel @Limiq and others. Never has there been anyone who expects a third design implementation for free. All of these people can confirm this is not something I ever promise, and if Bert believes I promised it to him then he needs to be the one that provides the evidence.

I would like to also point out that a lot of people were around the case when I was developing the website, this includes @Jason (graphics designer who made the 3rd design - feel free to provide the conversations in the group chat that we're still in) @Abd @amplearchitect @Grave @White @Pikachu @Dev Zach @Limiq and others.

Issue #5 -- Precedents set were ignored, case mishandled
Please check the precedents set in the cases that @Grave mentioned on his thread:
Either corrupt staff or regression in quality of staff

This has never been the case where someone is asked to refund half of it after finishing the work, at most they are asked to come to some other resolution. I am asking the staff to decide how the third re-design portion needs to work out and focus on that rather than making me arbitrarily refund half.

I have never had to do as much work as I did for Bert out of courtesy, at some point I am allowed to enforce my rules and ask for more money for something that is not promised/included in the main development, please, this has to be common sense. I have done ZERO non-paid additional work in the past, in this case I made the mistake of offering to do additional work once for free and then Pirate says that because of that I am somehow obligated to do it another time for free?

I could add any staff/moderator that has technical experience (intermediate at least) as the code is fully written in TypeScript, so anyone would be able to read it, and it's not obfuscated, I could even deploy it on a droplet of mine to show you the different versions that I had running for Bert.

I hope you take into consideration what has been shown and provided in the following appeal, feel free to ask me any other questions.


*Regarding Pirate/group of staff that handled the report and why I want a second look:

Spoiler

Pirate incorrectly states it’s not true he enters into an agreement by taking a service from me and making a payment. He did not just “contact” me he made a payment. And remember, I am the one showing evidence of receiving payment. Bert never even showed this, and Pirate clearly was on his side from the beginning and essentially forcing me to show evidence, not the other way around. If I am reported, there should be proof of him making a payment to me, he never did. Not once did the moderator replying here ask Bert for any evidence, even though most of his report was just his words and not evidence.

Pirate understood that he shouldn’t take this report, since he advertises for Bert, but he did. He posted a conversation with Bert where he states it would be difficult to make me refund him for something I worked on, and that maybe a DNT could be warranted. Bert also agrees here.



Pirate focused on how friendship "blinded" us but I'VE NEVER KNOWN BERT until I started doing his website. I never asked to get in touch in terms of a personal level. He keeps saying how we trusted one another because we were friends

Notice how Pirate immediately contradicts himself afterward, how to him being friends is a big problem, how there’s no terms and agreements, when there are, how I did not present a formal agreement when I am the one being reported, trying to justify the 50% refund ruling after he stated it would be hard to make me refund Bert.

This also makes it seem even more like Pirate is on Bert’s side, private messaging him about it being hard to get it done for him, as if he’s going out of his way to help Bert get the ruling he wants.

He states most gold sellers/buyers have an agreement, but then he rejects mine even though it was on my thread just like any gold sellers. States that Bert wanted a “working website that he could use” even though he had one and it was done and functional, clearly showing Pirate doesn’t understand. Even after he himself said I worked on it. He states the main issue being that Bert was not replied to and I moved onto other projects, but nowhere does Bert show any terms that entitle him to my undying attention after the project is already complete.



He does not appear to understand that once it is over, it’s over. My obligations are complete.


He says here that I could have at any time say it’s the last time I would do it and It would clear things up: https://i.imgur.com/yVGdzyZ.png[/IMG]

He mentions an “update whenever agreement” if there ever was one, so he knows there is a possibility it doesn’t exist yet still does a ruling based on the potential possibility even though Bert presented no proof:



He then says he agrees I did a considerate (he means considerable) amount of work, but I should have said the second time would be last at any time. I did.

Then he says he understood the third time may have been a friendly offer:



@Pirate making further assumptions and saying that I did put Bert on my ignore list, both are teaming up against me, for your information, if I ignore a person it wouldn't show their messages for me. This is clearly a lot of assumptions Pirate made, not based on any evidence. I thought reports are based on evidence?

Spoiler

Fact that I've received every single message on my discord and that I've never blocked & put Bert on my ignore list:








He contradicts himself several times here, and he is difficult to understand and I’m not sure if he understands what he is saying, clearly he has problems communicating. If his ruling was mainly because I “ghosted” Bert as he mentioned, then it is not based on any rules and I should be given a chance to continue communication, not random 50% refund. And I did not even “ghost” Bert, I didn’t reply to him because this was after our disagreement on payment for another design implementation. I’m not obligated to argue this with him constantly. Should he have presented any important issues, I would have replied.

Main reason for Bert creating the report: Ignoring him and not doing a free design implementation when it's supposed that I charge him for the 3rd time, this doesn't mean I scammed him.

Bert later adds on additional grievances without proof, but the other I could see is that he paid for a design from Jason and he would not have done so if he thought I was not going to implement it for free. In this case, staff should have focused on coming to an agreement regarding implementation and a ruling based on that portion of the work, or an ability for me to cover that part of the cost he incurred, not just randomly 50% refund of the project I already completed. And regarding this only part of the implementation that is disputed, I need evidence from Bert that I ever promised it as a part of the initial agreement. Bert never presented this portion of his claim, yet I am supposed to present evidence of me not being obligated to do it? That is like Bert saying Santa Claus is real, and I’m supposed to find evidence he is fake. How? How am I going to be forced into doing free labor?


Finally, Pirate says in the above comments with an analogy that it would be okay to turn away the customer, instead of making him wait. I essentially did this here (Reporting UKF/Lebgh0st - $2,500+Half a Year of Time) in the report but clearly it was ignored by Pirate as well.

I tell Bert very clearly on 09/08/2020 that I need to finish what I have as projects first, before I give him a quote on the design/ETA.



I never give him another ETA, when Bert says 2-3 weeks that is an estimate for the initial website, which was already completed by this point, not an ETA for the design implementation. Again, Pirate used this as an example of making him wait while I did other people’s sites when I told him from the beginning I would have to do what’s in hand first before I give him a quote/timeline.

Please, I would like someone who understands how development works to have a second look. I see on @Grave’s thread that @King previously made a ruling on development and he understands development is different from a graphic designer, and he understands how much work goes into it to some degree so perhaps he can look. @video @Sythe @Shin I believe you know how development in general works as well, I delivered the project to Bert, with my own basic design (I am not a graphic artist, I am a web developer) and then implemented a graphic design done by @Grave for Bert, and he asks me to do a third implementation of a design after the entire work was completed. I cannot keep going back and redo the design, it is hard work to re-implement the design, as it is not done in a way where I can just upload it/replace image files. It has to be painstakingly added in as if I am doing it from the beginning again, it is coded in Angular.

@Shin also had an issue with Bert, he didn’t even finish the job and he refunded 50%. I finished my job, and I have to refund 50%? How is this fair? What is this based on, what criteria/numbers/elements/pseudo-codes/architecture is it based? If anything, when I tried to charge Bert $300 for this additional re-design implementation, that says it is $300/$2500 amount of work, not $1250/$2500.

Remember, he says 50/50 is “pretty close” without any justification for this weird logic:


And this is after he says to Bert he can’t make me refund because it looks like I did the work.

 

We took another thorough look and determined that the ruling was the most equitable for the situation