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Cargo Cults and Christianity

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A few Christians that I know point to the rapid spreading of Christianity in the first 100 years after Jesus's death, and claim that only God could have enabled it to spread so quickly. If this were true, if only truly divine religions could spread so quickly, then there should be no historical parallels.

However, this is not the case. Cargo cults, the most famous of which revolves around "John Frum", had a brief flowering period in the South Pacific in the first half of the 20th century. American ships bearing cargo (and sometimes troops) would land on islands, bringing with them all sorts of wonderful things: Candy, cigarrettes, guns, superior clothing, medicine, etc. The natives immediately thought that the cargo arrived from the spirit world, and that the rituals of the Americans (talking on the radio, paperwork, etc.) were a sort of prayer to the gods. After the Americans left, many islands were gripped by an intense religious fervor - they built crosses, landing strips, docks, paraded about in mock military uniforms - all to persuade the gods to send them cargo.

In particular, the "John Frum" cargo cult is based upon a man (apparently known as John Frum) who stayed with the islanders a little while, preached to them regarding rebelling against the Christian missionairies, and told them that he would return soon (refusing to give the exact date), bearing huge amounts of cargo, and (according to some) driving out everybody but the natives.

Does this sound familiar?

The point is that divine intervention is not necessary for a religion to spread like wildfire. These cargo cults are an extremely obvious parallel to Christianity. Does it rule out divine intervention? No, but it certainly gives us a natural, secular explanation. If you Christians want to argue that this could not have happened 2,000 years ago, remember: The burden of proof is upon you.
 
Islam is the world's largest single religious denomination anyways.
 
None of us used devine intervention to prove how the story of Jesus spread fast (and by us, I mean I've never heard a single Christian use that as an argument). He just did so much miracles to so many witnesses that it spread. But also God isn't going to let his story die out, so...
 
Cymru said:
None of us used devine intervention to prove how the story of Jesus spread fast (and by us, I mean I've never heard a single Christian use that as an argument). He just did so much miracles to so many witnesses that it spread. But also God isn't going to let his story die out, so...

I have heard that argument, which is why I created this thread.

How do you know he did these miracles? The absolute earliest text was written some 40 years after he died! All sorts of exaggerations, mythologizations, or even deliberate lies could have muddied the truth!
 
I have heard that argument, which is why I created this thread.

How do you know he did these miracles? The absolute earliest text was written some 40 years after he died! All sorts of exaggerations, mythologizations, or even deliberate lies could have muddied the truth!

Yes but by so many different people? Including people who were not Christians but journalists?
 
Cymru said:
Yes but by so many different people? Including people who were not Christians but journalists?

All of these written reports - were they written by people who directly saw Jesus, or after hearing about him?
 
All of these written reports - were they written by people who directly saw Jesus, or after hearing about him?
Probably 70% of it was written down and the others were telling about the occurrences.

Plus shredderbeam why don't you leave the whole religion thing alone? Why do you stand so stern in the direction of there is no god, that you are trying to corrupted people to join you in your thought.

You have ALWAYS thought of Christianity as a CULT, which is VERY disrespectful to the people of that faith. There is Freedom of Religion for a reason to let others do their own practices and no one should interfere with them. But you insist that you turn their way of thinking.

What do you have against Christianity as a whole, that you make it clear that you don't believe in God. And you may say you don't JUST hate Christianity, but that is the only religion I see you "bashing".
 
Anarky said:
Probably 70% of it was written down and the others were telling about the occurrences.

No, none of it was written down until 40 years after.

Anarky said:
Plus shredderbeam why don't you leave the whole religion thing alone? Why do you stand so stern in the direction of there is no god, that you are trying to corrupted people to join you in your thought.

This is the intelligent debate forum. I'm not forcing you to come here. If you don't like it, get out.

Anarky said:
You have ALWAYS thought of Christianity as a CULT, which is VERY disrespectful to the people of that faith. There is Freedom of Religion for a reason to let others do their own practices and no one should interfere with them. But you insist that you turn their way of thinking.

When have I ever said that Christianity was a cult?

Again: If you don't like it, get out.

Anarky said:
What do you have against Christianity as a whole, that you make it clear that you don't believe in God. And you may say you don't JUST hate Christianity, but that is the only religion I see you "bashing".

You see me "bashing" theism, not Christianity specifically.
 
You told me to get out, but for what reason? I can come to see what you have said.

And I can read what people say, and get what they are trying to get across, but still at the same time, don't want people to know.

There were records of it, there are diary s there are personal testimonies, there are preserved records on the events. Just VERY few of them.

Plus, you tell me to get out if I don't want to hear you talk about "there is no God", but think of it as a person walking down the street, and a random person yelling "THERE IS NO GOD!" constantly.
 
Anarky said:
You told me to get out, but for what reason? I can come to see what you have said.

And I can read what people say, and get what they are trying to get across, but still at the same time, don't want people to know.

There were records of it, there are diary s there are personal testimonies, there are preserved records on the events. Just VERY few of them.

Plus, you tell me to get out if I don't want to hear you talk about "there is no God", but think of it as a person walking down the street, and a random person yelling "THERE IS NO GOD!" constantly.

What diaries are there that were written less than 40 years after Jesus's death?

Let me make it plain - nobody forces you to come here. If you don't like what I have to say, you're free to leave.

Thanks.
 
He's simply debating it. He's not "preaching" saying YOU SHOULD BELIEVE WHAT I SAY OR GET OFF OF SYTHE AND NEVER COME BACK.

He has "reasonable doubt".

I believe G-d exists and have debated the Fact millions of times.

You have to want to believe, that's all there is to it.
 
What diaries are there that were written less than 40 years after Jesus's death?

Let me make it plain - nobody forces you to come here. If you don't like what I have to say, you're free to leave.

Thanks.

Jesus was crucified around 33 AD, not sure how accurate that year is. St Peter was crucified in 67 AD. That means that the Apocalypse of Peter would have been written BEFORE he died. Peter WAS present at many major points of Jesus' life.
 
Inventor419 said:
I believe G-d exists and have debated the Fact millions of times.

You have to want to believe, that's all there is to it.

Why do you believe?

Darkgroove said:
Jesus was crucified around 33 AD, not sure how accurate that year is. St Peter was crucified in 67 AD. That means that the Apocalypse of Peter would have been written BEFORE he died. Peter WAS present at many major points of Jesus' life.

The terminus post quem — the point after which the Apocalypse of Peter was written — is revealed by its use of 4 Esdras, which was written about 100 A.D.; it is used in Chapter 3 of the Apocalypse.

Interesting.
 
So a book written by Peter was written 33 years after his death. Interesting indeed.
 
Darkgroove said:
So a book written by Peter was written 33 years after his death. Interesting indeed.

The book that we have today was finished after 100 AD. Whatever Peter allegedly wrote was changed quite a bit.
 
Devine intervention...
May the Christians look back over the past 50 odd years, what do you see?
I see corrupted governments, economic insecurity, war, global warming and a increase in the amount, power and anger in terrorism attacks.
Put your beliefs away for a second of thought.
God is not going to save the human race, if he is real he is none of a hero.
Claim that he wants balance then prove the balance, there is none to prove, god does not exist.
 
Why do you believe?





Interesting.

Wanna post sources?

Devine intervention...
May the Christians look back over the past 50 odd years, what do you see?
I see corrupted governments, economic insecurity, war, global warming and a increase in the amount, power and anger in terrorism attacks.
Put your beliefs away for a second of thought.
God is not going to save the human race, if he is real he is none of a hero.
Claim that he wants balance then prove the balance, there is none to prove, god does not exist.

The Bible says there will be disasters and pain before his return. Mark 13:20 tells us that if Jesus didn't return on the date that he will return, then nobody would survive. This tells us that Jesus will return when the world becomes so bad that it wouldn't last any longer, so he returns before it's too late. in WW1 and WW2 there wasn't anything that could destroy the earth, but now we are at the point of threatening countries with nuclear bombs. There was no point before these years where a country could have wiped another off the earth. This is why it wasn't possible for Jesus to return in those days, but it will be soon.
 
Cymru said:
Wanna post sources?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Peter
New Testament Apocrypha (Philadelphia/Westminster) 1964.

Thanks for taking the time to use Google.

Cymru said:
The Bible says there will be disasters and pain before his return. Mark 13:20 tells us that if Jesus didn't return on the date that he will return, then nobody would survive. This tells us that Jesus will return when the world becomes so bad that it wouldn't last any longer, so he returns before it's too late. in WW1 and WW2 there wasn't anything that could destroy the earth, but now we are at the point of threatening countries with nuclear bombs. There was no point before these years where a country could have wiped another off the earth. This is why it wasn't possible for Jesus to return in those days, but it will be soon.

Let's see exactly what Mark 13:20 says:

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
It says that if Jesus did not return, everybody would die, not that the world would end. Throughout history, it has been possible for all people to be killed.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Peter
New Testament Apocrypha (Philadelphia/Westminster) 1964.

Thanks for taking the time to use Google.



Let's see exactly what Mark 13:20 says:

It says that if Jesus did not return, everybody would die, not that the world would end. Throughout history, it has been possible for all people to be killed.

Well I tried looking... I'll read that now.

The verse doesn't say if it were possible for man to kill all, but if He didn't return, man WOULD kill all. So if it hasn't happened yet, then obviously He couldn't returned yet...


EDIT: Ok, I read that site, but I think it just depends on who we believe wrote it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_of_Peter
Some scholars believe the author was not Peter, but an unknown author writing after Peter's death. Estimates for the date of composition range from 60 to 112 AD.
 
Cymru said:
The verse doesn't say if it were possible for man to kill all, but if He didn't return, man WOULD kill all. So if it hasn't happened yet, then obviously He hasn't returned yet... and He hasn't returned yet, so he hasn't returned yet...
It was not the fire of Trinity that made this possible - it has always been within the reach of men to destroy each other.

Cymru said:
Ok, I read that site, but I think it just depends on who we believe wrote it.
Believe what you want regarding the author, but at least know that it was written after 100 AD.
 
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