Bringing Back Banned Users

[n4n0]

I'm not entirely against this idea but wary to support it at the same time.

To contest what a couple people have said about "once a scammer, always a scammer" - I could not disagree more. As many of you know I scammed back in late 2007, got away with it, then fessed up to it and pardoned on my own free will back in late 2011. The guilt sat with me for years as I flew under the radar, earned OMM, and even made it onto the staff team. I've since handled tens of thousands of dollars in trades, trusted with upwards of $2000-3000+ at one time, and not once did the thought of scamming ever cross my mind. Why, you may ask? Because I grew up and realized how stupid I had been when I was younger.

This ultimately isn't a terrible idea, and I wouldn't be entirely against the idea of bringing back conditional pardons for such users. Give them a "probationary" rank combined with a complete market ban, which can be appealed following a good track record of community involvement and participation.

Regardless of whether we allow these users back on sythe willingly or not - if they truly are remorseful and wish to partake in our community and/or market, they'll find a way back. Be it via ban evading and trading legit until caught, or just trading/communicating via Skype while still banned.

This suggestion could ultimately revive the community a bit while simultaneously reducing ban Evasion offenses overall.

 

[Yousuckv2]

Isn't it first staff vote after all the answering of questions is taken care of? Either way, this ^.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but I think certain parts of your proposition are more feasible than others. Blanket pardons/amnesty periods are going to be unpopular and thus impossible. But I think there is merit in the pardon-unit and the probation rank ideas. If nothing else, whenever a global+ unbans an account, it would be neat if it held an automatic "Probation" rank for, say, two weeks.

There's already TWC except the Probation rank expires while TWC doesn't.. Don't really see a point for the rank lol..

As for a group of non-staff being involved in pardons, if i'm not incorrect staff members are promoted and participate in the pardon process based on the idea that they're not supposed to be biased, meaning there shouldn't be an issue with them deciding whether or not to allow someone back into the community. Also, more people having their opinion on someone's pardon only increases the potential for bias as there's a higher chance of the pardoning user having a relationship with someone as the amount of users increases.

 

I think Verts did something similar a while ago for low level bans? Anyway if someone who fits your criteria wants to come back, they can pardon... it seems people rarely get denied pardons nowadays.

Oh- and I think you are overestimating the people that want to come back. Usually the people that want to come back are the people that submit pardons...

 

[n4n0]

I think Verts did something similar a while ago for low level bans? Anyway if someone who fits your criteria wants to come back, they can pardon... it seems people rarely get denied pardons nowadays.

Oh- and I think you are overestimating the people that want to come back. Usually the people that want to come back are the people that submit pardons...

I think what you're referring to is the restitution system that was put in place to unban users unfairly banned by Finn.

 

I think what you're referring to is the restitution system that was put in place to unban users unfairly banned by Finn.

No, no, I swear, something else happened more recently. Didn't we mass-unban people with low-level offenses just a while ago... for some reason I think Verts took a lead role in that.

Found it: http://www.sythe.org/community-general/1506124-help-us-out.html

Though that wasn't for scamming bans

 

[tMoon]

Edit: Posts happened while writing this, will edit in a minute with updated responses

Who wants to be part of a community where scammers are floating around with little to no punishment? It doesn't sound right no matter which way you put it.

You're implying as if people aren't being punished for scamming. No rules are changing, we'd simply be giving a second chance to users that scammed (small amounts) years ago.

Was it banned users in general or are there certain banned users in particular you were thinking about that made you suggest this?

For scamming, I'd have to go with no. For community drama reasons (i.e. Finn), it'd really depend on what they did. Some people like Daily, Spyike and Finn left such a hole in site I doubt the admins ever want them back.

Certain users in the sense of those whom were banned (lets say a few years ago) for small scams when they were younger and immature. Now, I have no idea how many users this would be. The idea came to fruition when I made the spam forum post about Vlad (http://www.sythe.org/spam-forum/1832168-hmm.html)

Being perm banned for "drama" I think is kind of bullshit unless their actions damaged Sythe in some way. I do not know why Daily was banned again, but while I like Spyike, he burned any bridges on returning to Sythe.

I'm just going to clarify that it is now impossible for a pardon to get denied without a staff response. Per our new rules your 7 days begins after the first staff reply, so no more users "slipping through the cracks"

Alright, I was unaware of such a change. It's quite possible I'm just not as aware of them going through and that I'm running off out-dated knowledge of the sythe in place.

I had just skimmed through pardon/dispute archive and noticed pardons with minimal responses. While I did not open these, I assumed that it was the same as it used to be. 1 - 3 staff responses, 7 days runs out, pardon was denied due to the time frame.

From skimming through your posts it seems more than anything you're only making this suggestion because you want some of your buddies back. If you'd read the vast majority of replies to this thread you'd understand that there shouldn't be a place for scammers within the community. While 'once a scammer, always a scammer' may not be accurate, a lot of them haven't changed in all reality. Also your claim that people only get support if they're known/were known is invalid. In all reality if you look through recent pardons, quite a few people have been pardoned or near-pardoned despite them not necessarily having been too relevant in the community. You just aren't noticing it because when they come back it doesn't cause as much commotion as major community members who were banned and have returned, or were friends with a lot of people on sythe at one point.

While your accusation is great - there's a slight problem - I do not have any "Sythe buddies." I know/knew people sure, but I don't talk to anyone outside of my forum interactions.

The only "posts" you could be referring to is my post in the spam forum about Vlad (http://www.sythe.org/spam-forum/1832168-hmm.html.)

Perhaps the pardon system is much more effective than I have known it to be and you're right, I'm unaware that "smaller" users are coming back due to no waves being made.

sithdrama* bans shouldn't be as severe.
Blackhat/scam bans gtfo.

Amenish

Isn't it first staff vote after all the answering of questions is taken care of? Either way, this ^.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but I think certain parts of your proposition are more feasible than others. Blanket pardons/amnesty periods are going to be unpopular and thus impossible. But I think there is merit in the pardon-unit and the probation rank ideas. If nothing else, whenever a global+ unbans an account, it would be neat if it held an automatic "Probation" rank for, say, two weeks.

Even with this first staff vote, other staff members still need to vote behind it within those 7 days.

You and me both (regarding feasibility.) I do not have any actual hope that such a system would go through, but I was hoping such a suggestion would spark conversation on possible solutions/alternatives.

 

[n4n0]

No, no, I swear, something else happened more recently. Didn't we mass-unban people with low-level offenses just a while ago... for some reason I think Verts took a lead role in that.

Found it: http://www.sythe.org/community-general/1506124-help-us-out.html

Though that wasn't for scamming bans

Ah, right. That was actually Richards brainchild ultimately. I remember that now.

 

[Tuna]

Was it banned users in general or are there certain banned users in particular you were thinking about that made you suggest this?

For scamming, I'd have to go with no. For community drama reasons (i.e. Finn), it'd really depend on what they did. Some people like Daily, Spyike and Finn left such a hole in site I doubt the admins ever want them back.

What did those guys do that was so bad?

 

[Donald Duck]

If people really want to come back, they can just repay their victims and pardon. Letting back people who have scammed basicly defies the whole point of banning people who have scammed/

 

[tMoon]

As long as the person/s are banned that are owed and the offence was under a certain limit ($10-20). Also the offence should well and truly be in the past (3-4+ years) and they haven't offended since, Then yes, they should be given a 2nd chance.

But if the member they scammed is still around then its unfair to bring them back without repaying.

It would be low offenses, not someone that has scammed a significant amount.

To help grab attention to such a system, Sythe could send out an administrative email to the accounts registered emails (providing they have one/if they even use it.)

Also a definite yes on the repaying

I'm not entirely against this idea but wary to support it at the same time.

This ultimately isn't a terrible idea, and I wouldn't be entirely against the idea of bringing back conditional pardons for such users. Give them a "probationary" rank combined with a complete market ban, which can be appealed following a good track record of community involvement and participation.

Regardless of whether we allow these users back on sythe willingly or not - if they truly are remorseful and wish to partake in our community and/or market, they'll find a way back. Be it via ban evading and trading legit until caught, or just trading/communicating via Skype while still banned.

This suggestion could ultimately revive the community a bit while simultaneously reducing ban Evasion offenses overall.

Conditional pardons opens up the possibility of bringing a user in who otherwise would need to wait another 6+ months to apply for a pardon. Possibly deterring them from Sythe, or just causing them to ban evade.

Oh- and I think you are overestimating the people that want to come back. Usually the people that want to come back are the people that submit pardons...

100% possible. I have no idea how many people would be interested in rejoining the forum.

Honestly, I think it would be good to launch an ad campaign to try and get people back onto Sythe. Make it clear that Sythe is still around, we still have a big market, and that we're offering second chances to individuals who did dumb stuff when they were younger.

Note: Ad campaign along the lines of buying signatures of prominent users on forums such as powerbot and bring some traffic back to Sythe.

I think what you're referring to is the restitution system that was put in place to unban users unfairly banned by Finn.

Was this a different scenario than the [Special Dispute] Sythe ordered when Finn went ape over Spyike?

If people really want to come back, they can just repay their victims and pardon. Letting back people who have scammed basicly defies the whole point of banning people who have scammed/

Repaying victims from a scam multiple years ago is incredibly difficult. This would effectively disregard that unless the users are still active which is quite unlikely. There are very few people I remember from a few years ago that are still active.

If we were to let everyone back, that it would.

 

[n4n0]

If people really want to come back, they can just repay their victims and pardon. Letting back people who have scammed basicly defies the whole point of banning people who have scammed/

It's not always that easy. Some users legitimately can't repay as the user they scammed has since gone inactive on sythe and can't be reached via email, Skype, etc either.

I ran into that problem when I pardoned, the guy I scammed couldn't be reached by any method I tried.

 

[Laptop65]

What did those guys do that was so bad?

Think the official reason for Daily was blackhat related stuff. He was a bit of troll also.

Spyike's career on here was just a giant trainwreck, ended up bullying the staff and threatening the top admins with legal shit, he even opened up his own version of this site as a form of opposition to it until in the end Richard just deleted his account and told him to shove off. No one's really seen the guy since.

Finn's official reason is inappropriate acts with underage users. That on top of scamming, social engineering and just in general turning the site's community + staff inside out while he was an admin was basically enough to have him sealed off the site forever. I think he posted a pardon last year or so, but it didn't go anywhere.

If people really want to come back, they can just repay their victims and pardon. Letting back people who have scammed basicly defies the whole point of banning people who have scammed/

It's not always easy to reach the victims who were scammed, especially if it has been a considerate amount of time since. At that point you have the situation of either donating it to the site, or someone just 'holding' it in case the victim(s) ever return.

 

[S]

I'm not opposed banning users from said respective section they scammed in, if it's only a scam. However, if it's blackhat and what not, a forum wide ban (as current), would be applied. Even then, a banned market/section user can still PM people and what not...and knowing the naivety of new users who aren't that vigilant, this may not be the best idea.

I doubt it will happen though. That being said, I agree with Video's and everyone else's posts above me regarding the standard we wish to upload.

 

[Jiwi]

As long as the person/s are banned that are owed and the offence was under a certain limit ($10-20). Also the offence should well and truly be in the past (3-4+ years) and they haven't offended since, Then yes, they should be given a 2nd chance.

But if the member they scammed is still around then its unfair to bring them back without repaying.

Didn't really want to type up a reply but these are my thoughts exactly

 

[Donald Duck]

@Laptop, N4no, Tmoe.

People often get pardoned by at least proving they have made a decent attempt to refund scam victims.

Imo people should not just scam and get off scotch free (which is essentially what you are suggesting) without even making any effort at all to get in contact with scam victims.

 

scammers should refund their victims, or atleast try to contact them first. Not fair if they would get unbanned without refunding.

 

[Apith]

no....
Edite: People don't change, scammers are scammers, don't trust anyone.

There are no "low level offences" when it comes to scamming.

When you were in school, surely you've seen, known or have heard of a kid stealing or attempting to steal something. It's very common. When you're young, you don't realize right from wrong like an adult perceives it to be. You are so caught up in greed and self gain that you forget about how the other person would feel, even if you think about it, you wouldn't care as much as an adult would since you are too busy with your gain. There's a good reason minors don't go to prison. But by your logic pretty much everyone is a scammer and they will never change. Oh look you were a 4 year old baby stealing that blue crayon from that kid? Scammers are scammers and they don't change right? Anyone who truly believes a scammer can't change is an idiot.

If it's a minor thing, then they should request a pardon.

I'm just going to clarify that it is now impossible for a pardon to get denied without a staff response. Per our new rules your 7 days begins after the first staff reply, so no more users "slipping through the cracks"

There was a pretty good suggestion suggested once, I don't quite remember it though. There have been some pardons with 1-2 staff replies and it doesn't really satisfy anyone that aren't staff. We don't know if it's been looked at, considered or ignored because it's an unknown person and spending the time looking at it isn't worth the time.

 

no....
Edite: People don't change, scammers are scammers, don't trust anyone.

There are no "low level offences" when it comes to scamming.

That is a load of fucking bullshit and you know it.

 

You're implying as if people aren't being punished for scamming. No rules are changing, we'd simply be giving a second chance to users that scammed (small amounts) years ago.

Little to no punishment. All scams must be looked at in uniform code. We can't give a slap on the wrist to anyone who has scammed in the past regardless of their age or situation. Everyone who has scammed should go through the pardon system. We'd be benefiting scammers by allowing them to be excused by the process. The pardon system builds character and discipline. If you've experienced it, it's something you don't want to go through and in doing so embeds a psychological trigger that tells you "not to do x". It's the same thing as a court summons. Should we excuse offenders and allow them to be above the process because of their small scale offense? I don't think so.

 

no....
Edite: People don't change, scammers are scammers, don't trust anyone.

There are no "low level offences" when it comes to scamming.

Do you even know how many moderators on this site were banned at one time for scamming or ban evading? This is such a silly reason to keep members from coming back.