Kids & Gender Confusion

Yes another one of these threads..

As some of you may know, Shiloh Nouvel Jolie-Pitt, the daughter of Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, believes that she is in fact a boy and not a girl. She wants to be called John (not sure where that name came from), and dress like a boy and the parents are complying with her wish. Can kids make these decisions for themselves, and are the parents at fault for encouraging such behavior at a young age? I believe the parents are doing this because they're celebrity figures, and in this era of gender acceptance, they are using their child as exploitation. If any of you are familiar with kids (being around them and such), you know they don't know what they want for sure. Would you comply with the wishes of the child, or ignore them? What do you think is best?

Spoiler: Source

http://www.inquisitr.com/1734888/avoiding-trans-kid-label-angelina-jolie-calls-daughter-john-she-wants-to-be-a-boy-video/

 

Who really cares... What's your obsession with these subjects?

Children of celebrities tend to struggle, we all know that, but I do have to say, this is a bit strange. I really don't know a whole lot about either of them outside of their acting careers. I don't agree with complying with this. Sure, maybe it's fun and cute in the beginning, but even in the age we are in, with "acceptance", I just don't find it to be a good idea.

 

You're caring right now

2 threads of similar topics =/= obsession

I'm just curious as to what others think about this. If people didn't care about topics like these (which is a complete lie), it wouldn't be headline news. You can make the case that it's news because they're A list celebrities, but I've never heard a story like this before. I also learn new things by reading the opinion of others, ultimately changing my view of different subjects.

 

I honestly don't know why you're always so defensive.

I really don't care, but I'm bored so I wanted to just engage in a conversation. The only reason it's headline news though, is because they're celebrities. If this were the case with my child, I really doubt I would be in news stand tabloids.

BUT ANYWAY, how do you feel about it? Do you agree/disagree?

 

Let them do whatever makes them happiest

 

You exaggerated, and I retaliated to your exaggeration. Anything I said in disagreement of "Who really cares... What's your obsession with these subjects?" would be considered a defense. The statement was uncalled for anyways. Not caring, and still wanting to engage lol.. Okay whatever.

I don't agree with complying with the wishes of the child because it's a child. Going with what the child wants now, can ultimately affect her future. My sister at a young age was at a phase of often wanting to do what would be considered "boyish" activities. I remember my mother telling me she would want to wear the same clothes as me because she looked up to me in a way. It's the same concept here. Angelina and Brad have 6-7 kids I believe, the elders being boys. In the source Angelina says she thinks shes one of the brothers. It's a natural case of wanting to fit in. Discipline is necessary for a child and I didn't see any here. There are even demands aimed towards the parents, which are not corrected.

Maybe it's because I'm old fashioned when it comes to parenting that I found this strange.

 

I fully agree with you there. I'm constantly told I'm old fashioned when it comes to parenting. I'm very adamant about having a well-behaved child who is respectful. I understand that they go through phases at certain ages, but I feel that many parents don't actually get that it's their jobs to TEACH their children.

 

A bit too much freedom in my opinion. If, say, you're daughter made the same decision, what would you do? I'd say no, but not in a mean way. More like "why would you want to change the way a beautiful little girl looks"; something to those effects, maybe the child just isn't comfortable with themselves yet, hence such suggestions.

I definitely don't believe it's related to transexualism or identity disorders. But who knows.

 

In general, this is poor parenting. Eating ones entire stash of halloween candy in one night makes the child happy for a short time, until they get sick from all the sugar. Parents (and educators in general) are there to teach children what happens without them having to suffer from experience.

Then again, it's not my issue. The couple can raise their child however they please.

 

I'm not sure where these kids get their ideas of gender from, if that's what you mean. Viz.., I was born with a penis and an X-Y chromosomal composition--so if I decided to start calling myself "Nancy" and referring to myself as a girl when I was five years old, the idea that I could do so--go against my own biology--would have had to have been implanted into my head from somewhere.

Not that there's anything wrong with calling oneself Nancy, but words are a human construct. The idea that one can refer to oneself using words that nobody has ever used before--one's parents name their son John, call him John his entire life, tell them he is a boy, he realizes he has a penis, etc.--isn't just something that children make up out of nowhere: Somebody gave these kids this idea.

When I was little, my sister enjoyed wearing t-shirts instead of the usual dresses and other prim-and-proper girly clothes sometimes because she had two older brothers and had to deal with us. It isn't uncommon for some girls to dress more guyish than others--it's called being a Tomboy. But for a five year old to decide they are of a different gender than their biological sex is fucking crazy--I wouldn't say punish the kid; they're just being a silly, crazy little kid like all little kids are.

My question is, who told them specifically that they can just arbitrarily rename themselves at the age of 5? 50 years ago, this was completely unheard of. If somebody is indeed transgendered, it would be cruel to tell them "NO! YOU ARE A GIRL, I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS, YOU WILL DO WHAT I SAY, I AM YOUR PARENT!, etc." But a five year old child has no concept of society--let alone social constructs like gender norms. Again, small children go through phases. It really doesn't indicate anything substantial other than that they have an active, young mind, as all small children should. When parents start reading too much into the actions of a small child, peddling their own socio-political ideologies onto them, I don't consider that good parenting. I'm not this girl's parents, so I'm not going to suppose I know better for her than they do--but there is a definite cultural shift within parenting as a whole that is concerning when it comes to this sort of thing.

 

You have this fascination with making threads like this where you're asking for an input from a Runescape-based community. Majority of the people here are about 16, have barely matured, and haven't thought shit (nor do they know anything) about what you're asking.

^
Oh and there's a difference between letting them do what makes them happiest in an unhealthy setting (such as Xiero's example of letting them eat a bag of Halloween candy) and letting them express themselves.

Gender roles, boy clothing, girl clothing, boy toys, girl toys, all social constructs.

You believe Angelina and Bradd are exploiting their child without any basis expect how she dress and her desire to be called John. That's it. Angelina and Bradd don't need to dress their child to get attention, they already world-renound stars. Oh, and they also keep their private life, well, private.

Yes I would comply, it's absolutely ridiculous that parent's wont let their children have a "boys haircut" or wear "boyish" clothes because they have this sense that that is boy clothes. They are deciding on cosmetic apparel, not a damn sex-change.

@Jimmy words are a construct, but so are the idea of boy/girl names. Go down to another country, and there is a shift in what names are feminine (Glenn for example) and what names are masculine (Renene for example.)

Also, Jimmy stop being so smart bruh

 

I completely agree--making your kid dress or act with more masculinity or femininity than they actually have doesn't make any sense. Some girls act a bit more boyish and some boys act more girlish--it's just part of being human. Some boys want longer hair, some girls want shorter hair. That's completely normal. But you still want to nudge them in line with social standards because that's what living in a society--and proper parenting--entails.

Little girl: "I want to start calling myself 'Thomas.'"
Parent: "Your friends are going to think you're acting a little strangely. And I really like your name--I was the one who picked it out for you. What's wrong with it?"
Little girl: "You're right! I'll go run play with the dog and come up with a new idea!"

Again, these are small children--they have no concept of self-awareness or what is normal: They're just having fun. It's a parent's responsibility to ensure that their fun is constructive, however, rather than destructive. Letting you kid arbitrarily change their name to that of the opposite gender at such a young age has huge ramifications that ought to be appreciated.

I agree--but what five year old hates the name their parents gave them so much that they need to invent their own? I've always though my name, James, was special because my parents picked it out for me--that's how my mom explained it when I asked her why my name was what it was. And that's how any proper parent ought to behave. "What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

I remember one night when I was probably about five or six trying on one of my sister's dresses and my mom's heels for the fun of it. But I also spent a substantial part of my childhood in a batman costume. Little kids like playing dress-up and make-believe, but when you start psychoanalyzing every little thing about it, you're only hurting their future happiness.

 

Kids are easily influenced. The name could of been picked up from anywhere. The reason why I questioned it was because nicknames or personas are often picked off from your original name.

Eg: Caroline = Carl

I think that's what parents are for. It's okay to let the child express themselves, but when they take it to extremes of wanting to be a different gender, it definitely raises your attention and questions what you should do. Their choice of going ahead with the wishes was easily derived from what modern society would expect them to do. I myself think the child is too young to make that call for herself, but it's just an opinion at the end of the day.

What you do at a young age can become your reality later on in life.

Do you honestly believe I have a fascination because I created two threads of diverse topics, or was that just the first word to pop in your head? This thread is in general discussion, it holds no relevance to runescape. According to Suf's "how old are you thread" the majority is 18-22 years old, and the ones who were in that category are the users who often pry through these forums. Even if the majority were 16 years old, there is no reason to undermine their ability to understand the topics at hand, nor am I forcing anyone to post on these threads. Generally users who don't post on threads like these have no interest, so the ones who do in fact post have one. I was 16 two years ago, and not much changed in my understanding of popular societal topics.

When you think about kids expressing themselves, you think of sports, academics, art, culture, not gender displacement. Wearing clothes is one thing, wanting to be referred to as someone you're not is a whole nother ballpark(arbitrary names). We're told not to look into what children do too much, but when teenagers of low self esteem or depression do crazy things, it all dates back to their childhood days (at least in the eyes of the media).

Exploitation of an agenda, not for attention. If acceptance of gender roles was not a thing, would this be publicly shown for ridicule? I think not.

Also, there is no need to act like a self righteous pompous douche here, no one is wrong in their way of thinking. I shared this topic on the basis of understanding the opinions of others, there is no need to put people down for thinking differently.

 

Honestly who cares? Most trans people I've spoken to or read about realized they were different than others at a VERY young age nobody spoke to them about it or told them what a trans is sometimes people are just born different. I don't know how old the Daughter is but it's extremely unhealthy for parents to interfere with trans children forcing them to like the opposite sex and wanting to remain a male/female. Their daughter should get love and understanding no matter what he/she chooses to do and may just be confused but it's extremely stupid to try to repress these emotions from your child just because you don't like it, and it often leads to severe depression, anxiety, and sometimes even suicide like we've seen in the past.

But I guess it's easy to bash them from the internet when you have no life experience, not that I'm saying anyone in here is I honestly didn't read all the comments but I've seen a lot of kids on here thinking they're funny shit-talking it.

 

Why are you guys acting toxic? No one is bashing anyone.

I was asking for a perspective on your guys point of view. It's not a matter of forcing, it's a matter of not complying with the child. I'm not an advocate of forcing sexuality preferences on any child, although such an idea should not even be brought up when dealing with a kid. I do understand what you're saying though.

Spoiler: Fun fact not relevant to the post

https://gachiyellow.wordpress.com/2014/01/11/fact-there-is-no-gay-gene-but-there-are-chemicals-that-turn-people-gay/

 

I edited my post like 30 seconds after realizing it may sound like I'm targeting you or someone else in here guess you saw my post too quickly lol.

Also, that website you linked is terrible, never source a blog for an argument when you'd need some hard scientific facts which that article doesn't source. Also from the looks of the other articles that blog has on it I'd say it's not very credible just my opinion.

 

The blog had empirical evidence in it. Take another look at the links within the blog. I'd post them here, but I don't want to drive off the topic at hand too much.

 

I did look at them, they all look pretty shady, and vague most likely trying to promote a certain agenda. You can find anything to support your arguments on the Internet, I bet I could find a scientific article saying being gay is genetic.

 

Kids should be allowed to explore their gender identity. If they aren't [insert other gender than birth gender] then when they're of legal age to have whatever permanent changes made then they can do so at that age; but if their sex and gender do align and they just like a different name and clothing then they'll realise that themselves also at that age.

Just because one bit of fabric has M on it and one has F on it, doesn't change the fact that it's just fabric - it doesn't have a gender for crying out loud. If the kid wants to be called John and doesn't like girls clothing then Angelina and Brad are TOP CLASS parents for allowing the kid to express themselves.

It's way more damaging to dismiss the child's wishes and make their feelings sound invalid or wrong. If the kid does need gender reassignment; it's better that it's explored and welcomed and not suppressed - 41% of transgender persons attempt suicide. 41%. Most because the parents tell them it's a phase, it's wrong, it's not natural. They definitely aren't hurting the child; the opposite would be.

 

First of all, many transgender people that I have personally spoken to, and many transgender cases that I have read/heard about, have admitted they felt something wrong with their bodies really early on but only understood those feelings later. It would be a shame if Brad & Angelina were using their child as a social ploy, but either way, I think what they're allowing their child to do is pretty wonderful. Not enough transgender people get the support and help that they deserve. If my kid were to tell me they didn't feel like their biological sex, I would definitely try to understand what they're actually feeling, whether it be they are actually transgender, they're confused, or simply misunderstanding. But neither Brad or Angelina said John wanted to be a boy, just that they will only respond to being called John and that they want to dress like a boy; the media has pulled the transgender into this.

Ignore the fact that John has two very famous parents. Yes, celebrity children often have many problems. However, that is absolutely no reason to ignore their possible health concerns. I would hate to be stuck in the wrong body. And it's okay to explore the possibility of a child being transgender (even at the age of eight). It's not like John will even be able to begin to transition until they're much older (if they turned out to be transgender). And for physical, surgical changes, they would need to go through extensive therapy before they would be able to do so (I wouldn't doubt they'd need even further evaluation, considering they're, as you said, the child of two very famous people). Being transgender is not cute. It's fucking terrible. And what transgender people go through is absolutely horrific. You don't find it to be a good idea? God forbid acceptance is such a terrible idea. And I'm not trying to seem like I'm in attack mode, but not accepting transgender people is complete bullshit.

All John is doing right now is physically appearing as male and being called John. That's not so bad. If they're happy with it, there's no problem. Maybe they're just a tomboy, who knows, but it's okay to comply with their harmless requests. Discipline? So because a child is dressing like a boy and requesting a different name, it's automatically wrong. If John's birth name had been Jessica, and wanted to be called Jessie, and dressed like a boy, people would probably notice it less. Because it's a gender-neutral name and hey, they're just a tomboy probably right? And just because younger girls often look up to their older brothers doesn't necessarily mean that's why. Yeah, it's probably why a lot of girls turn out to be tomboys but no one ever says that's a bad thing. If it's just a phase, they'll grow out of it. But it probably isn't a phase. Being transgender is just as natural as feeling the need to fit in with the boys. Why is the feeling of being not your biological sex such a wild thing?

And it's totally fine that you think it's because you're old-fashioned, but people need to learn to be more open-minded. I know I've seemed negative towards you in some past threads, but right now, I'm totally not trying to be negative.

What do Angelina & Brad need to TEACH John? Clearly they're already teaching them what they need to, that their feelings are valid and completely okay to explore.

I'll tell you exactly why saying "Why would you want to change the way a beautiful little girl looks?" would be an awful approach towards someone questioning their biological sex. Because your little girl doesn't feel like a little girl, so clearly she wouldn't want to look/sound/feel like one (in girly clothes with longer hair etc.)

It's not crazy at all for a five-year-old (John is 8 btw) to feel uncomfortable about their appearance and/or identity. They don't understand what it means so yeah, the word transgender surfaces and so that's obviously something someone else would've had to bring up. However, the feelings were still there prior to the idea that they could be something other than their biological sex. The feelings transgender people often have at young ages don't become apparent once they understand that they could possibly be transgender. The feelings were already there, but the understanding comes later. Just because the word and definition comes into play doesn't mean the feelings are any less valid.

Thank you, holy shit. People don't understand this at all apparently.

It's not about hating the name, it's about not feeling comfortable being addressed as such. And there's more to it than just being more masculine or feminine. You dressed up as fun once, and also roamed around being Batman, but that's not at all the same what's going on with John. They aren't playing dress-up, they aren't comfortable in their current attire or with their birth name. So their parents are helping them explore other options.

As far as names go, a lot of transgender people don't stick with similar names. I don't know the statistics. However, plenty don't. They pick what they are comfortable and content with, with what is personally appealing to them. Many transgender people actually often don't choose similar names because they get dysphoria (it reminds them of their birth sex).

No one said John was transgender besides the media. John is simply exploring their comfort zone.

If it turns out that John is transgender, it's good that they are getting the support they need now rather than later; it'll make everything a lot easier on them if that turns out to be the case.