Add to Scam Report

Please add this post to:
http://www.sythe.org/report-scammer/1805156-rsblue-scam-report-kept-my-money.html

Before I start my explanation on the event that occurred, please refer to the dispute on OSBot, which the trade occured:
http://osbot.org/forum/topic/65450-dispute-vs-blue-and-arctic/

I also want to identify this member as SupremeLeader on Sythe. This member is banned and has been caught ban evading multiple times.
http://www.sythe.org/members/422972-supremeleader.html

SupremeLeader had contacted my worker that he had 375M RS2007 for sale. Arctic had offered him $825.00 USD via PayPal. Supreme had accepted the offer, and the trade occurred successfully without any problems. Feedback was exchanged between the two members on OSBot (Where the trade had occured).

A day after the trade, Supreme came into my live chat with a strange request. He had asked if he can refund the payment I sent to him and have me send him the payment to another PayPal account. I had rejected his request and made it clear to him that I will not do it. There are many reasons as to why I will not do it.

1. All unauthorized transactions ARE reversible (Found this out by a phone call with PayPal). Therefore we run the risk of losing the $825 that he would refund.
2. Supreme had admitted that his account was limited via live chat. We don't want any connections with limited accounts because we will run a greater risk to be under investigation with PayPal.
3. We have no assurance that the refund will not be reversed (Huge unnecessary business risk)

The next day Supreme had issued a refund which he claimed that PayPal did because we sent the payment as a gift. Although it was extremely cleared that he sent the refund himself and pretended to be PayPal. He immediately made a dispute on OSBot. After evidence had been presented to the staff of OSBot, they accepted our solution.

After viewing Maldesto's and SupremeLeader's replies, Blue and I propose the following.

*He clears ALL debt with PayPal, approximately $2,500 USD to my understanding.
*He removes that account's limitation. (To be verified by a Moderator/Administrator via recorded screenshare with 2 refreshes of the web page he is showing).
*The account remains in good standing for 45 consecutive days (that being, not in a state of limitation).

After 45 days and he meets all requirements, we will send him 825$ to the same account he refunded from.

If he cannot meet those conditions within 180 days, we will NOT be refunding any amount back to him. The money will be donated across forums in which we advertise in, as well as giveaways and donations to charities. This is for the hassle he has caused us. We are not a bank, therefore we shouldn't be forced into a situation where we are.

The reason why this user wants to transfer funds to another account is because he has been limited by PayPal. Limitations by PayPal are to be taken seriously and can be traced. We are aware of the debt that the user has with PayPal. By sending him the payment back, it can be considered as helping out a crime (Something we STRONGLY forbid). There is no way we can be forced into a situation where we get forced to do wrong, the solution we have proposed was the most generous thing we can do as we are NOT REQUIRED to send any refund at all. By sending us a manual refund when we told him not to, he has "refunded" the money by himself, therefore there is nothing owed to him.

Here are the reasons to why I believe our solution is fair:

He clears ALL debt with PayPal, approximately $2,500 USD to my understanding.

We will ONLY send the payment back to the same account it came from. The reason why he is trying to transfer it to another account is because he has a negative balance on his account. I will not take part in helping in use PayPal in a fraudulent way. I find that extremely immoral.

He removes that account's limitation. (To be verified by a Moderator/Administrator via recorded screenshare with 2 refreshes of the web page he is showing).

We do not want to linked to his messed up PayPal at all. If his account is limited and PayPal sees multiple transactions with us with a large amount of money going in and out, it will only allow PayPal to make a connection between Supreme and I (Something we don't have).

The account remains in good standing for 45 consecutive days (that being, not in a state of limitation).

This goes back to our second requirement, if he gets limited right after he gets unlimited, whats the point? We would still be under investigation by PayPal.

After 45 days and he meets all requirements, we will send him 825$ to the same account he refunded from.

It is only fair that after 45 days, we will send the money back. This assures that the refund he sent will not be reversed.

f he cannot meet those conditions within 180 days, we will NOT be refunding any amount back to him. The money will be donated across forums in which we advertise in, as well as giveaways and donations to charities. This is for the hassle he has caused us. We are not a bank, therefore we shouldn't be forced into a situation where we are.

In no way shape or form do we want to keep his money, although we do not want to lose our money. If the refund does get reversed then we will be short $825.00, and who is to cover for that? Not only that, our account has the chance of getting limited as PayPal can draw a connection between the two accounts. I will not send to another PayPal account because I will not support his use of avoiding PayPal debt. I am not a bank, I should not of been put in this situation in the first place. It was forced upon me by sending a refund when I told him to. The only fair solution is that if he does not meet the requirements by 180 days, the money WILL NOT be returned to him. The money will be donated across forums as well as charities.

Legally speaking, we are not obligated to send him anything back. He sent the refund manually to us when we had told him not to. Therefore he is giving us the money back. We were fair enough to allow him a chance to get it back if he fulfills the requirements, but NO individual should be forced upon a situation like this. This user also has had encounters with Bogla where he tried to do the same thing. I WILL NOT help this user in avoiding PayPal debt nor do I want to risk losing money. We have done our part by sending him the payment for the gold, but he refunded it manually without getting our permission. This user has posted the same dispute across many forums and has caused us great trouble.

I want to take time to view the screenshots he had uploaded:
http://i.imgur.com/y8OG3cS.png?1
This screenshot says that his account has been limited because there had been complaints of buyers not receiving merchandise. There have been many users who have been saying that I was the one who called PayPal to say I didn't receive my merchandise. That is completely false, we sent out the payment as a gift, therefore PayPal will NEVER classify it was a "merchandise". If you read further down on the e-mail it says that "Making sure your PayPal account has enough money in it to cover the pending refunds". The point of this e-mail was to ask him to put more funds into his account because his account is in negatives. Something he has not uploaded is his resolution center, I can assure you he has multiple cases opened where people have disputed him. We have no disputed any transaction with him.

http://i.imgur.com/J8EodBJ.png?1
This E-Mail was sent to him on Jan 27, 2015. The transaction with us occurred on Feb 9, 2015. He forced a refund on Feb 11, 2015. Therefore this e-mail does not relate to our transaction. Although, it does warn him about the personal payments which he chose to ignore because he did not bring it up at the time of payment.

Here's some screenshots of the live chat:
http://gyazo.com/e0aa840152059ee6f2430eda033010cf
We refuse to send another payment.

http://gyazo.com/cfccece9ffcb165b8e7c22ad2899d378
Threats from the user that we will be forced to send to another account.

http://gyazo.com/8bd8cef1e66e86c5b4f16752a3b0c4b8
He accuses me of charging back, even though he refunded the payment by himself.

http://gyazo.com/a92a0d9daea8c82c2f7179d99e80003f
He pretends he's paypal by sending this refund, clearly it was him.

I really don't want to be viewed as the bad guy, but the risks outweigh the solution of just sending him the money back. I am willing to upload ALL zopim chat logs and discuss more with mods if needed. I am tired of dealing with this on every forum. I believe what we have chosen to do is correct.

Thanks,
Blue

 

[R2Pleasent]

Let me just cut right through all this really simply. You can't keep his money. If you want to wait 180 days to send it again, that's fine, but you have absolutely no right to keep his money.

 

I am willing to coorpate with whatever a sythes final decision is. Here's my issue, I am not a bank. I am not here to wait 10 years to send his money back. I am giving a chance to get his money back as long as he removes his limitation. In no way shape or form do I indend to use his money for my own use, I never wanted this to happen anyway. He forced this situation upon me by sending a refund when I told him not to.

In response to R2 saying I have no right to keep his money:
Legally speaking, there is nothing that I owe him. He issued a manual refund when we told him that will we will not be helping him send money to another PayPal. I am more than willing to reverse my decision of donating his money after 180 days, but I will like to keep the requirements of getting his account limitations removed. I do not want any PayPal to investigate my account thinking that I have anything to do with his fruaudulent use of PayPal.

I would like some more input from different staff members.
Thanks.

 

After careful consideration, we have revised our solution.

He will refunded to the SAME PayPal, 180 days from today. This puts us out of liability if his refund gets reversed. Please add this to the dispute thread and let me know if you mods think this is a fair solution.

Thanks for your time and effort!

 

[R2Pleasent]

After careful consideration, we have revised our solution.

He will refunded to the SAME PayPal, 180 days from today. This puts us out of liability if his refund gets reversed. Please add this to the dispute thread and let me know if you mods think this is a fair solution.

Thanks for your time and effort!

That's fine, 180 days from the date of the refund is the timeline for an unauthorized dispute though. Can you please give me a reason why the timer would start today as opposed to when the refund was issued? I am fine with eliminating risk from your side of the transaction, but I need you to explain to me why your risk in this transaction is changed by starting the timer from today.

 

That's fine, 180 days from the date of the refund is the timeline for an unauthorized dispute though. Can you please give me a reason why the timer would start today as opposed to when the refund was issued? I am fine with eliminating risk from your side of the transaction, but I need you to explain to me why your risk in this transaction is changed by starting the timer from today.

Sorry didn't mean to say today, but the day of the refund.

 

[R2Pleasent]

Cool, then this is settled. Thanks for coming to an agreement.

For the record, the refund should be provided August 11th.