resolved

[jejhadsiuwekjfd]

Scammer's profile link: Chicks
DISCLAIMER: it's the service provider's trainer that scammed me, but i've been instructed to make this ticket out to chicks since they are the service provider and they are unwilling to reimburse my bank

Amount scammed: 1.1b+ osrs gp at start of training service, may be more now due to item price fluctuations

Discord ID + Unique Discord ID:
Chicks#9999
593627982573207595

Proof that it's their Discord: imgur.com
Discord ID, unique discord ID, sythe service post -> official website -> discord -> sythe vouch thread

Explanation of the trade: exit scam, bank cleaned out after osrs training service (1.1b+)

How they scammed:

TLDR: bank got cleaned out after osrs service (1.1b), plenty of suspicious behavior by service trainer, won’t reimburse my bank value, got banned from discord after posting in feedbacks section, but got service fee refunded.

Disclaimers:
· I did not transfer my wealth before the ticket (my fault). I’ve used chicksgold multiple times, and transferred my wealth the first couple times to be safe. Felt like they were trustworthy enough to stop doing that.
· My account has been flagged before, so I’m not trying to draw unnecessary attention to it. Therefore, my common practice is to let the account sit for 1 day before starting services, and let it sit for 1 day after services.
· Screenshots here (imgur.com), in chronological order. Final screenshot is my bank after I logged in. Cropped screenshot so that it doesn’t show my username.

Ticket: sepulchre 94-99, loot for 5 only

Suspicious behaviors by trainer. Look at screenshots.
· Not looting floor 5 (loot tracker) consistently. Trainer was given a final warning by staff about performance since I reminded them multiple times about floor 5 looting only.
· Inconsistent running times based on the time remaining at the floors
· Multiple and inconsistent osrs overlay and display changes (name overhead on and off, tile click color blue and red, tile marker inconsistencies, stat progress indicator on and off, new runlite plugins, inconsistent inventory setup for runs)
· Other smaller but sus behavior like prayer drainage and refill and boosted rc level, but probably not important

In 2 weeks, he only boosted from level 94-96. Chicks told me he had trouble with electricity for some time and took on more orders than he can fill, so that’s why his progress was really slow. He had two sepulchre tickets along with others. I was extremely flexible with them. I told them to pause my order until he finished the other sepulchre ticket, so that he can focus on my ticket after.

My ticket was cancelled on 8/14/2022 after another underperforming session. At 8:17PM ET, the trainer was told to log off. (have proof)

I changed my password on 8/14/2022, 8:24PM ET. (have proof)

I left my account for one day, and logged in 7:20PM ET 8/15/2022. The login message was, “you last logged in 23 hrs xx minutes ago.” (unfortunately, didn’t do screen record when I logged in for first time to show the last logged in message and opening bank for first time)

Notified chicks that my bank was cleaned at 7:22PM ET 8/15/2022. (have proof)

Took a bank screenshot at 7:23PM ET 8/15/2022. The inventory setup was the same as the last screenshot of the service. (have proof)

My hypothesis:
· Other people had access to my account. Too many variations and inconsistencies in displays, setups, overlays, and performance. He may have other trainers under him to help him train, essentially running a downstream operation through chicks.
· I was cleaned out by one of the other trainers sometime before the ticket got cancelled, because the “you last logged in” message was before the ticket was cancelled.

Chicks conclusion (100% copy and pasted from discord w/ staff names redacted):

“so the trainer has claimed that he's not done it, and he's also not exit scammed etc
this puts it in a situation where it becomes a he said she said kind of thing
I'm sure (redacted staff member name) has already told you the basic things for your safety that we've mentioned plenty of times in the TOS etc but i'll just repeat the flaws in this ticket
1. Excess wealth wasn't moved. I understand not having an alt account but no matter what service provider you're getting and who you are getting and just in general actually, it's always worth it to have an alt account to store wealth incase you get hacked on your main and
2. Veterancy comes into play - You've been here for a long time but so has this trainer. This trainer's been with us for a while and he's also done plenty of services with us without any issue at all. When it comes to his deposit, it can also match the amount stolen so it would make no sense for him to steal the wealth given all other services he has pending
all the other orders he has are completely intact
3. Unfortunately given everything I've just listed above to you, it really does come down to a he said she said kind of thing. Paired up with everything else I've mentioned , I'm afraid that regarding the wealth there is nothing we can do. I refer to :briefcase:･terms-of-service regarding the excess wealth and other parts. I've gone out of the TOS when it was clear that there was an exit scammed but in this case I'm afraid it isn't clear as to what happened. I believe you have not done it, but I also believe that our trainer did not do it either.”

My response to their points:
1) I agree, my fault for not removing excess wealth.
2) His long history and matching deposits give him the benefit of the doubt and less incentive to scam me personally, but there is enough suspicious behaviors throughout the ticket to suggest that there may be more than he is letting on.
3) Chicks say it’s common for trainers to train on different computers, thus different overlays. But let me ask you, is it normal to have this many inconsistent overlay, setup, and runelite changes? One or two variations, fine. But this isn’t the case. That suggests more than 1 person is logging in.

Chicks also says that it’s possible I logged in, cleaned out my bank (selling on ge, messing up my bank tabs, rearranging leftover items, getting rid of bank fillers/placeholds), re-set up my inventory to match, then claimed I got cleaned, especially since I left my account sitting for 1 day, giving me “time.”

The only argument I have for that (since I didn’t do a screen record) is, it’s always been my policy to wait 1 day after the end of a service. I’ve done this since the beginning in all of my tickets. The only “proof” I have is that I’ve consistently demonstrated patience when it comes to service tickets, even in this one.

Let me preface by saying that I know this is a “he said she said” type of situation, where unless there’s definitive proof (me screen recording myself logging in for the first time, or osrs having trade logs with timestamps), it’s impossible to 100% prove someone’s innocence or guilt. Therefore, I can only go off the suspicious behaviors to make an educated guess. And based on what I can provide, and what chicks can provide, I thought at least I would get some sort of semi favorable ruling, like 60-40 leaning my way.

They refuse to reimburse my bank, so I posted a similar review in their discord, and they banned me. But at least they still refunded my service cost, which is ~$230.

 

[Keeno]

Hey there , I hope all is well.

I'm going to keep this short and simple since I babbled a lot in the other report therefore I'll only address the key parts :

- It is true that the performance the trainer put in this service is entirely unacceptable. I more than agree with that and I've personally apologized to you for that in the past. It's also the reason why I gave a full refund on your service when you cancelled parts of the service. The looting of the 5th floor is also something the trainer to do, which is also why the refund happened.

- My point about the trainer was that different overlay doesn't necessarily mean that the trainer outsourced to family etc, adding and giving you more context towards why it's not a 100% seal it and done decision.

- Towards the favourable ruling -> there is also the fact that I have access to the trainer ticket and I have spoken to the trainer, which gives an extra reason as to why the ruling was that we can't give any refund. You have your side of the story and the trainer has his side of the story. There were also some other factors I didn't mention to you such as how much the trainer has been trusted with before, amount of jobs done etc.

Since the message you redacted is written by me, you have my permission to edit it with my name.

Towards the reason of the ban as well - As I've stated before, any discord can pick to remove feedback they think is unreasonable and the other party is welcome to go to trustpilot to discuss it forth. In your case I had replied in your ticket and you hadn't replied for 2 hours but posted the feedback after,so the decision at the time was to remove you. It's also worthy and important to note that after you were banned you were refunded via our website where I asked you for your refund details.

As I've previously stated as well(which you agree with), this entire situation could've entirely been avoided had you had not any excess wealth on the account. I'm just speaking solely off the terms of services here that you agreed to and as I told you in the ticket itself, had it been a clear situation where there wasn't a lot of doubt, the decision would've been another.

Agreed TOS:
https://i.imgur.com/ovbzUnf.png

for reference -> this is a different trainer than the other report and the reports have no link between them. I'm happy to discuss this forward via discord as well if need be so feel free to open a ticket in the services discord(unbanned) or message me via DM (apart replying to sythe admins/mods)

Wish you a pleasant rest of the day.

 

[jejhadsiuwekjfd]

firstly, thank you for refunding me the service ticket cost. secondly, i disclosed not transferring wealth as a disclaimer, but that's irrelevant to the issue at hand. let's drop these two points going forward since they have no baring on the scam investigation.

so let's address your points:

1) the huge variance in performances (based on loot and remaining timer at levels) and different inventory setups (different items and orientation) are the suspect parts. if it's the same person, there shouldn't be this many changes.

2) i quickly counted 4-5 osrs overlay changes, 3 runelite plugin changes, 3 runelite game visual changes, and 3 inventory setup changes. when looking at each screenshot, it seems like there are a total of 5+ general setups, depending on how you count them. you say trainers train on different computers and locations, but how are you going to argue that one trainer trains on 5+ different computers with ALL different settings? if i actually looked at each picture closely and marked down all the differences, i'd come up with more.

3) no offense, but what else is the trainer going to say? that he did it? this shouldn't even play a role in influencing the ruling.

as for his past history, sure, that can be used like a character statement, but that's past performance. his performance DURING my ticket was lacking. if the performance was subpar for me, the other tickets that he had at the same time could have been subpar also. does that not create a situation where there is incentive to scam if he knows that his underperformance is going to cost him? the evidence i provide is enough to question his track history, at least for the current case in this time frame.

also, you mentioned his deposit being the same as my bank, so he wouldn't risk it. no, that's EXACTLY why he would risk it given the right circumstances. he obviously wouldn't risk it for anything less, and anything more would be too obvious. if he knows that the default response is always going to be "you should have cleared your bank," "deposit is the same as scammed amount," and "he has a good track record," he knows that he has the upper ground and won't have to prove ANYTHING, since you guys will always side with him by default. all he has to say is, "i didn't do it," not provide any ACTUAL proof, and he'll most likely get away with it. the only way the client can ever stand a chance is recording himself logging in for the first time to a cleared bank account.

4) not sure how the timing of me posting the feedback and not responding to you BEFORE posting it is a reason to ban me. plus, i responded to you guys after posting the feedback.

let's be straight. you guys banned me and deleted my review cuz it was "unfair" and aired out dirty laundry. fair, i'm fine with the ban, you guys can run the discord however you like. if you guys were confident in your decision, you would respond to it publicly, which i've seen you guys do.

5) you guys create a dynamic where any sort of scam is heavily in favor of you guys and easy for you to victim blame for whatever happens, since not only is the burden of proof is on us, unless the proof is literally a video of the guy clearing us out, you guys will come up anything to say how it ISNT the trainer. no amount of secondary proof pointing to a "high probability" situation will change your verdict.


i agree that none of us have 100% definite proof to prove our own innocence and the other party's guilt. therefore, the next best thing is providing any sort of evidence. i provided more than enough circumstantial evidence and suspicious behavior to cast doubt on your trainer's trustworthiness and words, while you guys provided none to prove his innocence or my guilt. character statements and ToS are not evidence.

 

[Keeno]

I'm always more than happy to discuss a decision publicly, which is the same thing I'm doing now, just not via the feedback thread which will cause more issues.

To address point 5 since that's the one that matters -> That's not true. There's been occurrences where we did side with the customer and fired the trainer even though the trainer denied it.

For 3, actually, yes. Trainers can know when they've gotten hacked and had issues etc. We've had a customer in the past have his bank stolen and the trainer instantly admitted he doesn't know what happened but it is entirely possible he got compromised/ one of his family members did it and in that case we refunded the customer and came to an agreement. Past performance should also play an important part as one mistake doesn't mean that he should be instantly guilty. If that was the case in the real world, we'd all be in prison for anything. He does not have the upper ground as he is under obligation and TOS with us and his payments+ balance can be withheld. We don't side with trainers instantly from the get go, that is a myth.

For 4, I'm more referring towards the idea that you weren't willing to discuss it further and just wanted to shine bad light onto us, which is fine to do and as I've said, we only delete them on discord if they're deemed unreasonable as you've said yourself.

The evidence you've provided is that the trainer had different interfaces and that he had one bad performance. That's not enough evidence to go off on and also again, not something that proves he did it. It's all just theories and I'm sure we can both agree (as you've said) that there isn't enough proof to make an exact decision. You were expecting more of a 60-40% ruling but with the extra information I had from the trainer, it more of became a 50/50 where you cannot say for sure who did it. But again, I'm happy to go forth with whatever decision sythe takes.

Lastly, just to clarify a point (I can add you back to the ticket for the record so you can read our convo again), what I meant by the UI and overlays is that it's not definite proof he had more trainers working on it. Even if he did , that again doesn't go on to say that one of them stole the wealth. Those things are still obvious from the get go and we vet our trainers properly, alongside this being the first issue that's happened with him.

The wealth not being transferred should be considered, as it is an important point towards this report as you failed to secure your account properly.

 

Accusations like this are hard to prove, anyone with access could have removed the wealth from the account. This includes yourself, chicks, or the worker assigned to the order.
The TOS that was agreed to also absolves chicks so we will not be holding them liable.