[RESOLVED]

[Dorkinator]

They are claiming that their dice bot is provably fair when it's not. Their rolls are based only on a server seed that as far as I can tell is calculated at the time of the roll and is not distributed before the game is chosen or the dice is rolled. This is the second time they've done this.

https://i.imgur.com/9s2YJG1.png

Elite Ranks Dice bot provably (not) fair

@Owner

 

The seed is generated before the roll so bot first prints the seed from the code then rolls the same number I can provide the code to the staff team if they would like to have a look and see that it's provably fair.

 

[Dorkinator]

The seed is generated before the roll so bot first prints the seed from the code then rolls the same number I can provide the code to the staff team if they would like to have a look and see that it's provably fair.

That's still not provably fair. The bot doesn't do that either.

Imgur

Can you show me where the bot prints the server seed hash before the roll?

 

[Dorkinator]

Wouldn't that just be showing how the bot works then? Therefore anyone could copy it?
Elite is one of the only few places I've seen (at least) that "proves" the validity of the bot.. compared to other well known and not as well known servers, gambling fcs, etc.
Just earlier throughout this past week alone, I heard about so many people making profit from Elite's bot.
It sounds like you might have just gotten bad unlucky rolls (keep in mind other people can be rolling in the other channels as well, despite that the rolls are random anyways).

I don't gamble. This isn't about the bot's fairness or not it's about them advertising it as provably fair when it's not. Also nothing publicly visible in their discord proves anything besides that there was a seed for the roll. It doesn't prove that they didn't throw away 100 seeds to get to that one.

 

[Dorkinator]

People like Zpa who don't understand the logic/math behind something that's provably fair are why I made a scam report for this in the first place. They're using it to market it as something that's safe and can't be influenced when it's anything but that. It creates a false sense of security for the people using it who don't understand that they're being mislead.

 

[Dorkinator]

Are you calling me an idiot then? I said what I said so I don't try to assume anything.

I'm not, and I'm not. I made it bold so you can find it easier.

Wouldn't that just be showing how the bot works then? Therefore anyone could copy it?
Elite is one of the only few places I've seen (at least) that "proves" the validity of the bot.. compared to other well known and not as well known servers, gambling fcs, etc.
Just earlier throughout this past week alone, I heard about so many people making profit from Elite's bot.
It sounds like you might have just gotten bad unlucky rolls (keep in mind other people can be rolling in the other channels as well, despite that the rolls are random anyways).

If you are asking about the Elite Ranks Dice bot, might as well ask about all the other gambling fc's bots too. SOW, PD, Dropperz, Dragon Dyce, and the list goes on.

IDK who most of those are but as long as they aren't claiming that they're provably fair when they're not then I have no problem with them.

 

[primeduels]

Preface: I am only writing this because I am knowledgeable in this area and it upsets me when users defend systems they just don't understand. Technical people should be making replies to this thread. If you don't understand the math or the programming behind it, that's fine, but don't make claims in things you just don't understand. Below is the simplest I can make how a provably fair system should work.

If you can't understand any of the following, that is understandable. Maybe this can break it down a bit easier: Crypto Gambling Foundation - Education for provably fair gaming.

A fair (but not provable) system includes ALL of the following:

-A server seed generating system that automatically releases old serverseeds and their hashes to users publicly.
-A client seed system that allows the bettor/player a way to affect their outcome. This is a string of text that is put into the roll generating function.
-A nonce value that increments after each roll/game to prevent generating the same hash every game.

This isn't some unique system that Elite has. Every BTC site, RS site uses these. If you want a more in-depth explanation please see this: Provably Fair explanation - DiceSites.com

Example dice rolling function: Take the serverseed, the clientseed, and the nonce, hash the string and generate a number 1-100 from the hash. This system is bulletproof in proving rolls because if the roll was tampered with, then the hash of those 3 strings would not result in the number that the game displayed.

The system above is a fair system but it is not provably fair. To call it provably fair, the site must also create a way for users to calculate these rolls after the fact to prove that their dice roll was not tampered with mid-game.

Coming from someone who has actually written their own bot and used common-place provably fair algorithms that most, if not all, dicing sites use, I can tell you that calling Elite Ranks discord "provably fair" is inaccurate and not proper advertising. To claim that a dicing game is provably fair, you must be able to check rolls with SOME sort of algorithm or chat command in discord to roll. That system does not exist in Elite Ranks. They may be hashing a serverseed and a clientseed and a nonce, but none of that is visible or transparent from them. Ask Elite to verify a bet and you will be upset that you can not. https://i.imgur.com/r14UXK7.png For a quick list of some of the sites that have verifiers.

 

[Dorkinator]

To call it provably fair, the site must also create a way for users to calculate these rolls after the fact to prove that their dice roll was not tampered with mid-game.

Everything you said is correct except for that. For it to be provably fair the client needs to be able to change their seed after the server seed hash and nonce are already known.

 

[primeduels]

As I did state in my post, "-A client seed system that allows the bettor/player a way to affect their outcome."

To reply to @Zpa here's my provably fair system in place:
https://i.imgur.com/hXNQiJM.png
https://i.imgur.com/0lpzdED.png
We release serverseeds at 12 midnight GMT but I can use !newserverseed to roll a new one.

 

Before I go to sleep any of mods that will deal with this report feel free to contact me on discord I am more than happy to provide the code and proof that it's provably fair. Discord: Coin#8309

 

[primeduels]

But that's the problem, it's not provably fair. Showing your code to Sythe mods may show that it's fair but you can't keep calling it provably because you aren't letting your users prove anything!

Provably fair - Wikipedia

The service operator will publish a method for verifying each transaction in the game. This is usually by using open source algorithms for random seed generation, hashing, and for the random number generator.

Showing Sythe admins doesn't change the fact that you aren't doing things provably fair.

Edit @Zpa : Let's say you went into a store that said "30 day return policy" and you bought an item and you were unsatisfied and wanted to return it. You go inside and say I'd like to refund this item but they say "oh im sorry we don't allow returns" and you, falbbergasted say "but the sign outside says you allow 30 day returns!"

Edit: Who's to say they even use the code they're showing the Sythe mods/admins? That's the main problem. I could show the Sythe mods one set of code, and use another and nothing would be fair or provable. Allowing your users to verify their own rolls with your data is the only way you're gunna prove that you use a fair system.

 

[Dorkinator]

It's just rival clans trying to slander the name elite for past 5 years. Do you really think some random dude would care about this esp in "report a scammer" section. I am totally used to this xD but there should be really different section which will be only for these type of reports even tho I think mods are doing good job with changing the titles of false reports to "resolved" so it doesn't hurt the users name. (such as getting bad reputation over false reports)

I'm not affiliated with any gambling clan and this isn't slander or trivial. You're misleading people who use your service, deceiving them into thinking that it's something that it's not. The fact that you think this is just a rival clan isn't doesn't change the fact that you're lying in your thread titles, in your discord, and during streams advertising it as provably fair when it's not even close.

As I did state in my post, "-A client seed system that allows the bettor/player a way to affect their outcome."

To reply to @Zpa here's my provably fair system in place:
https://i.imgur.com/hXNQiJM.png
https://i.imgur.com/0lpzdED.png
We release serverseeds at 12 midnight GMT but I can use !newserverseed to roll a new one.

I didn't look too closely but if your nonce isn't predictable or announced ahead of the roll then it's not provably fair since you can change the nonce to impact the roll.

 

Either way I don't have time to discuss this with you I will wait for mod to contact me so I can provide the code and proof that it's provably fair.

 

[Dorkinator]

I should also mention that I did give your clan warning and notice that I would post a scam report if it wasn't fixed I even explained why it wasn't provably fair. https://i.imgur.com/xQxULgQ.png

Last time you guys tried passing off a dice bot as provably fair I even helped explain it to your programmer so they had a safe correct implementation. I really don't appreciate you insinuating that I'm only doing this for non-altruistic reasons.

Elite Ranks Dice bot provably (not) fair

 

I should also mention that I did give your clan warning and notice that I would post a scam report if it wasn't fixed I even explained why it wasn't provably fair. https://i.imgur.com/xQxULgQ.png

Last time you guys tried passing off a dice bot as provably fair I even helped explain it to your programmer so they had a safe correct implementation. I really don't appreciate you insinuating that I'm only doing this for non-altruistic reasons.

Elite Ranks Dice bot provably (not) fair

Either way I don't have time to discuss this with you I will wait for mod to contact me so I can provide the code and proof that it's provably fair.

 

Provably fair requires a authentication system that allows ANY BETTOR to replay their old rolls by hashing the values themselves. Showing a sythe mod does nothing. You have to have a roll verifier that's accessible to all of your users to be called provably fair. And that's it. You are just going to keep getting reports from people that realize you are not truthfully advertising. It's pretty cut and dry by the definition on wikipedia:

Provably fair - Wikipedia


Either make it provably fair by creating a system to allow your bettors to verify their rolls after the fact or change your advertising. The mods should ask Stake.com about their opinion on provably fair. I'm interested to see other site owners take on your definition of the words. Showing your code to mods does not magically make your system "provably fair." Please re-read the quote above until your definition of the word has changed in your mind because you are just repeating the same thing over and over.

This is my last post in this thread. I've said all I need to to define the terms "provably fair" and show what a system that has an authentication system should look like. Good luck with your report.

Either way I don't have time to discuss this with you I will wait for mod to contact me so I can provide the code and proof that it's provably fair.

 

[primeduels]

You have enough time to keep posting the same thing over and over and dodging the fact you have no idea what provably fair means.

 

You have enough time to keep posting the same thing over and over and dodging the fact you have no idea what provably fair means.

This is my last post in this thread. I've said all I need to to define the terms "provably fair" and show what a system that has an authentication system should look like. Good luck with your report.

Either way I don't have time to discuss this with you I will wait for mod to contact me so I can provide the code and proof that it's provably fair.

 

[Champ]

@Owner Regardless of your bot being "Fair" it will never be "provably fair" for the following reasons:

- The nonce isn't being shown and clients aren't able to set their own seed.

I didn't look too closely but if your nonce isn't predictable or announced ahead of the roll then it's not provably fair since you can change the nonce to impact the roll.

Therefore, you will need to change your titles, or you will be punished for false advertising.