DNT

[Shin]

As illustrated in my post it is a very short term solution to a long term problem and in the future will likely actually cost us members.

So you agree that it's a solution to the issue at hand (decline in activity), but make assumptions about what the rest of the community will do in response? From what I can see, it's been more active that ever, so your argument of it "costing us members" is seemingly invalid at this point. Now you'll say, "WELL YES SHORT TERM... YOU DIDN'T MENTION LONG TERM!" Oh would you fuck off with that shit. Address the points people actually make in response to you instead of trying to nitpick the bullshit of what was left out.

Let's not forget that with college courses soon starting and younger members going back to school as well, activity is going to drop anyways and we'll need every active member we can get. Trading scammers/undesirables for active and valued community members, which we've already seen happen, isn't the way to go about things.

Activity shifts all the time. Just because school ended for some people, doesn't mean it did for everyone (is the forum 95% American? No...). Furthermore, activity can tend to decline over the summer because people actually want to go on vacation or do things or have fun. If that wasn't the case, why do prices for virtual items in almost every gaming platform ever tend to decline over the summer? Is it because of "summer sale deals" and people trying to undercut the shit out of each other? Or is it because a lot of people actually try to go outside or on vacation and the supply outweighs the demand?

Also, an FYI: We're not trying to barter scammers/undesirables for active and valued community members. If they have issues with changes and are unable to make a stance with an appropriate/valid defense and leave as a result, that's their own perogative. I doubt they're leaving with the mentality of of "fuck this site" or "down with these changes!", but more or less due to not agreeing with how things are moving forward and return after things have had a chance to work themselves out.

Also while it may be entertaining to see scammers getting flamed, notice it's not bringing them any closer to paying back a single dime... so?

How long has DNT been out for? Do you really expect people to pay back X amount of dollars (especially larger amounts) in that short amount of time? At least some of these people have been making progress toward repayments (even before DNT). Stop assuming everyone pre-DNT is some piece of shit / scumbag at their core. They may have performed some action(s) which are frowned upon, but in an internet/online capacity, it's not as difficult to make your wrongs right if you really try.

 

[Yousuckv2]

So you agree that it's a solution to the issue at hand (decline in activity), but make assumptions about what the rest of the community will do in response? From what I can see, it's been more active that ever, so your argument of it "costing us members" is seemingly invalid at this point. Now you'll say, "WELL YES SHORT TERM... YOU DIDN'T MENTION LONG TERM!" Oh would you fuck off with that shit. Address the points people actually make in response to you instead of trying to nitpick the bullshit of what was left out.

Activity shifts all the time. Just because school ended for some people, doesn't mean it did for everyone (is the forum 95% American? No...). Furthermore, activity can tend to decline over the summer because people actually want to go on vacation or do things or have fun. If that wasn't the case, why do prices for virtual items in almost every gaming platform ever tend to decline over the summer? Is it because of "summer sale deals" and people trying to undercut the shit out of each other? Or is it because a lot of people actually try to go outside or on vacation and the supply outweighs the demand?

Also, an FYI: We're not trying to barter scammers/undesirables for active and valued community members. If they have issues with changes and are unable to make a stance with an appropriate/valid defense and leave as a result, that's their own perogative. I doubt they're leaving with the mentality of of "fuck this site" or "down with these changes!", but more or less due to not agreeing with how things are moving forward and return after things have had a chance to work themselves out.

How long has DNT been out for? Do you really expect people to pay back X amount of dollars (especially larger amounts) in that short amount of time? At least some of these people have been making progress toward repayments (even before DNT). Stop assuming everyone pre-DNT is some piece of shit / scumbag at their core. They may have performed some action(s) which are frowned upon, but in an internet/online capacity, it's not as difficult to make your wrongs right if you really try.

Anything could be regarded as a short term solution to a long term problem so if you mistook that as me saying this is in any way a good idea then I apologize.

Do you think people leaving in disagreement with the way things are happening has no correlation the current changes or the state of the website itself? While it may not be as crude a reason as "fuck this website" or "down with these changes" i'd say there's certainly some sort of relation to be found between the two?

DNT has been out for over 3 weeks and there's more people who were already trying to pay it back beforehand than have actually made an attempt since being given DNT. The only people i've even seen address the subject since being given DNT are @Matt Hasty and to an extent @Karl although he also said he was working on paying shit back in like 2013 so i'm not sure how fruitful that would be. I highly doubt the amount of users currently working on repayment is the desired amount in comparison the amount of users who were allowed back which in at least some capacity makes this currently unsuccessful. There are actually a few users I am fine with having been unbanned, thing is there's about 5 members who probably shouldn't have been allowed back for every decent unban. I also agree that it's not difficult to right your wrongs if you try, problem is many aren't trying?

 

[Shin]

Anything could be regarded as a short term solution to a long term problem so if you mistook that as me saying this is in any way a good idea then I apologize.

But how many short-term solutions are actually viable for long-term problems? If you have a better solution, why haven't we heard it yet? I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but banning every user on the site or closing it down is not an effective strategy as crazy as that might sound to you.

Do you think people leaving in disagreement with the way things are happening has no correlation the current changes or the state of the website itself?While it may not be as crude a reason as "fuck this website" or "down with these changes" i'd say there's certainly some sort of relation to be found between the two?

As I said, some are leaving more or less due to not agreeing with the current state of affairs and will likely return after things have blown over. Notwithstanding, the influx of activity from users on the site seems to outweigh those leaving at the moment. Hell, you even requested an SRB are were back not long after. Not that anyone was surprised, of course.

DNT has been out for over 3 weeks and there's more people who were already trying to pay it back beforehand than have actually made an attempt since being given DNT.

Wow. Just 3 weeks... and you're triggered by the fact people don't have hundreds or thousands of dollars at their fingertips to refund people. If it were easy, don't you think it would have been done already? Cut them some slack and give them time. At least they can contribute to the community during that time.

The only people i've even seen address the subject since being given DNT are @Matt Hasty and to an extent @Karl although he also said he was working on paying shit back in like 2013 so i'm not sure how fruitful that would be.

Why does this concern you? Do you think your opinion of who they are in an internet/online capacity means anything to them or helps them to refund any debts?

I highly doubt the amount of users currently working on repayment is the desired amount in comparison the amount of users who were allowed back which in at least some capacity makes this currently unsuccessful.

On what basis? You really give nobody credit do you? If you were unbanned and given DNT with an $800 debt to pay off, should I expect you to have it paid off by say... tomorrow?

There are actually a few users I am fine with having been unbanned, thing is there's about 5 members who probably shouldn't have been allowed back for every decent unban. I also agree that it's not difficult to right your wrongs if you try, problem is many aren't trying?

For the 1/5 you seem to despise, 5/5 are capable of performing whatever action(s) the 1/5 did. Conditional unbans? Why do you think that was removed for pardons?

#equality
#makesythegreatagain
#hattezisfree
#seattleorgtfo

 

[I Bleed Duke Blue]

It's been nearly a month since the release of DNT. Has anyone in that group paid their victim(s) back anything since being unbanned?

I've got a end of month type payment plan with TTB at the moment to clear my loan debt.

Kind of contingent on a few IRL things how many payments will have to occur.

But yeah we've talked post DNT & have set things up.

And yes to anyone wondering. He'll get interest.

 

[Yousuckv2]

But how many short-term solutions are actually viable for long-term problems? If you have a better solution, why haven't we heard it yet? I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but banning every user on the site or closing it down is not an effective strategy as crazy as that might sound to you.

As I said, some are leaving more or less due to not agreeing with the current state of affairs and will likely return after things have blown over. Notwithstanding, the influx of activity from users on the site seems to outweigh those leaving at the moment. Hell, you even requested an SRB are were back not long after. Not that anyone was surprised, of course.

Wow. Just 3 weeks... and you're triggered by the fact people don't have hundreds or thousands of dollars at their fingertips to refund people. If it were easy, don't you think it would have been done already? Cut them some slack and give them time. At least they can contribute to the community during that time.

Why does this concern you? Do you think your opinion of who they are in an internet/online capacity means anything to them or helps them to refund any debts?

On what basis? You really give nobody credit do you? If you were unbanned and given DNT with an $800 debt to pay off, should I expect you to have it paid off by say... tomorrow?

For the 1/5 you seem to despise, 5/5 are capable of performing whatever action(s) the 1/5 did. Conditional unbans? Why do you think that was removed for pardons?

#equality
#makesythegreatagain
#hattezisfree
#seattleorgtfo

Pretty sure I never asked for you guys to ban everyone, but rather keep those users banned who had actually earned their bans, and many others agreed. But I know, crazy of me. I also stated on another thread and a few times since then that there are a handful of DNT users who should remain unbanned, the only reason I assume a mass reban of all of them is more likely than rebanning most but keeping some is due to the fact that we'd never hear the end of the arguments about why some people shouldn't have been left unbanned and vise versa and whose to be the ultimate decision maker and based on what parameters should the decisions be made?

I'm not disagreeing with you on the reason people are leaving, i'm simply stating that the reasons they're leaving and the reasons i've outlined seem to go hand in hand at least to an extent, and it's unlikely that one will be changed without the others also undergoing some form of change. I suppose only time will tell but I don't believe it's very likely Richard will change any of what drove them away without changing any of the other recent additions. If your assumption is that they'll come back anyways and just need time to get over things then maybe, but again i'm not too sure this is the case, I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

I'm not demanding those that scammed hundreds/thousands pay it back in full before sunset, but most of them haven't even worked out a payment plan be it $10 a month or less which is ridiculous, 3 weeks is ample time to come to some sort of agreement no matter how minor it may be. A lot of users didn't scam hundreds or thousands either and still have yet to make any attempt towards repaying the meager amounts they stole.

Big Rich said that people pressuring them should contribute to them paying back, but while myself and others have done so, they haven't paid back a dime, which is more evidence that this isn't working as planned.

Once again i'm not saying they should pay back the $800 immediately but paying back a small sum/% or even working out a plan for future payment with staff or some sort of alternative instead of doing .... nothing... could be a good thing.

The 1/5 I actually feel deserved to be unbanned generally aren't scammers. Your argument that they and the people I feel shouldn't be unbanned is a little vague, i'm unsure if you mean the actions they did to be banned in the first place or the actions they've done since being unbanned. Either way it is not about what they're capable of doing, it's what they've done in the first place and what they've done to fix it. Obviously some bans like leaking staff lounge 12 years ago, posting porn when it was a perm ban or other non rules as well as drama related bans, who gives a fuck if they're unbanned and whose to say most of them deserved a perm ban in the first place. That is simply what I was arguing against your claim that I feel all DNT users are scum, because not all of them are. Many are and that continues to be shown however.

 

[I Bleed Duke Blue]

I like @Yousuckv2 pressuring DNT users tbh. It's a pressure you don't get while banned. It's too easy to de-prioritize Sythe priorities. Granted I was one of the few people trying to pay my loan back long before DNT came into play and tried to be as communicative as possible (and I wasn't communicative enough).

Somebody has to pressure these people. I care about my online reputation just as much as I care about my reputation in real life. It's like I've said numerous times, if I cannot uphold integrity on a simple internet forum, it really does not set you up for success in the real world. I'm just lucky TTB was gracious enough to help me out and I didn't go to some loan shark, because I'd be buried under 6 feet of concrete if I wasn't communicative with them. Granted, this is a forum, but you should still reflect your genuine character with any activity you partake in. Sure, you can be loose and meme and troll on the internet, but when the content gets serious, you have to be serious as well.

I feel really bad about the situation with Joshan. It is by far the thing I regret most on my 8 years on Sythe. The evading was stupid, but if that was my only infraction I'd have been pardoned long ago. No, I don't use the market too much, but that's not what matters to me. My rep does. Getting this DNT rank off and being a full - all privileges back member.

I can only hope that other DNT users feel the same way. There's no excuse in not being proactive about righting your wrongs. If you're just here to piss people off, nobody can/will/should respect you.

Personally, I'm grateful for the DNT system from a personal standpoint because it keeps me disciplined and has me making smarter financial decisions. I went and got my student loans frozen, I went and actually started consulting with financial experts and budgeting experts. I've asked my Dad for advice. I've learned the value of not accruing excess debt and NOT ASSUMING that your financial situation will be the same in 6 months, a yr, 2 yrs etc. Now I budget TTB's loan repayments as an actual bill just like anything else. Rent, utilities, phone/cable, TTB. That's how I budget now. I wasn't doing that before and it was beyond stupid.

So.. while I regret how things went down, obviously, it taught me one of the most valuable lessons of my life. So this simple internet forum people are so quick to troll or get mad at people fighting to maintain a certain integrity, you're in the wrong. That's not to say there aren't two sides to every argument and counter-points that can be made. But if you're trying to bring real, tangible change to this place, leave the memes aside for the moment and actually use some critical thinking.

This isn't directed at anyone. Just a blanket statement. And to say I like what Yousuck is doing. I respect what Richard is trying to do. I just don't want people thinking I'm here with a smirk on my face and to just troll people for being let back here. I'll banter in the Spam Forum to pass the time but when stuff gets serious and have legitimate questions aimed at myself or other DNT users, I HOPE you take the time to take them seriously.

 

Most of the complaints before DNT was implemented centered around the magical idea that it would somehow increase scamming.

Now that it clearly hasn't increased scamming, the goal posts have been shifted. Complaints now center around how it hasn't increased repayments (yet).

Yousuckv2, what are you going to do when the first DNT repays his $50 from 2006? Disappear up your own butthole complaining that only one member has repaid anything? Then when 10% have repaid? Are you going to come back here an apologize for being an utter wank?

Probably not.

 

Disappear up your own butthole

I chuckled

 

[Punjabi3]

Most of the complaints before DNT was implemented centered around the magical idea that it would somehow increase scamming.

Now that it clearly hasn't increased scamming, the goal posts have been shifted. Complaints now center around how it hasn't increased repayments (yet).

Yousuckv2, what are you going to do when the first DNT repays his $50 from 2006? Disappear up your own butthole complaining that only one member has repaid anything? Then when 10% have repaid? Are you going to come back here an apologize for being an utter wank?

Probably not.

Just curious, if this idea doesn't work will you apologize as well? Or will you fall back on the idea that we should let these people walk free because they contribute so much activity to the community.

 

[Matt Hasty]

@Sythe I feel like Yousuckv2 was born without an anus, so it'd be impossible for him to disappear up his own butthole.

 

[SuF]

Just curious, if this idea doesn't work will you apologize as well? Or will you fall back on the idea that we should let these people walk free because they contribute so much activity to the community.

Isn't the point to increase activity so if they contribute activity doesn't that mean its working?

 

Just curious, if this idea doesn't work will you apologize as well? Or will you fall back on the idea that we should let these people walk free because they contribute so much activity to the community.

I dont understand how it can't work. It already works.

>= 0 repayment is the same as what we had before, but we have more activity

 

[Yousuckv2]

I dont understand how it can't work. It already works.

>= 0 repayment is the same as what we had before, but we have more activity

So nobody ever repaid anything when the pardon system was the only route to an unban? Interesting theory. Now that you've made the pardon system worthless, less users are even attempting to use it as they can just wait until you feel like unbanning them anyways, meaning less users are attempting or being successful at repayment. If anything LESS users are actually being repaid at this point

 

[Punjabi3]

I dont understand how it can't work. It already works.

>= 0 repayment is the same as what we had before, but we have more activity

So far, the people I have seen pay back have had the intent to pay. I'm sure you could have got similar results with an improved pardon system like you're working on now.

 

[Yousuckv2]

So far, the people I have seen pay back have had the intent to pay. I'm sure you could have got similar results with an improved pardon system like you're working on now.

You think he's working on an improved pardon system?

 

Most of the complaints before DNT was implemented centered around the idea that people didn't feel scammers should be allowed back without repaying a dime and given access to everything they wanted on the forum, only losing out on a market most of them don't want access to anyways. But punishing scammers, funny idea I know. (Inb4 more "but real legal systems..." or "they were banned for 4 years, that's punishment enough!" even though they haven't paid back a dime bullshit.)

When the first DNT user repays his $50 i'll congratulate him on being less of a shitty human being than the other hundred or so you've unbanned. When 10% have repaid? Given how 'well' things are currently going how soon exactly do you predict this will be?

Hey retard fuck the reason you're in this situation in the first place is because you sucked big rich's cock instead of even making the slightest attempt to pay people back, get to work faggot he has enough dickriders

In your tiny tiny brain it's never once occurred to you that human beings respond to incentives.

A lot of these DNT accounts have surpressed donation perks. If people are willing to pay money to get donation perks, then maybe they are willing to pay back so they can get their donation perks back.

Rather than spraying your salty verbal diarrhea everywhere you could help figure out how to incentivize repayment. But of course you don't actually care if anyone gets repaid. All you care about is your fragile little ego which you've foolishly pinned to getting people banned on an internet forum

 

[I Bleed Duke Blue]

So far, the people I have seen pay back have had the intent to pay. I'm sure you could have got similar results with an improved pardon system like you're working on now.

I think this is a good / valid point to make.

While I obviously don't blame Richard for the Pardon system being how it was, I always personally felt like it was pay back all or nothing (This fked up my budgeting because I kept trying to budget a 1k+ expense all at once...STUPID on my part). Again - this is on me not anyone else. But it certainly made it a bit more difficult to pardon. Luckily for my own sanity I have a conscience though and running away forever was never something I planned to do.

It does sound like from other threads though that Richard has a plan for a streamlined pardon system. That's great news.

As for any DNT people that are just here to troll - if x amount of time passes just re-ban them and let them try their luck in the new pardon system when they decide they want to take responsibility for their mistakes.

 

[Punjabi3]

@Sythe

Most people here are only suggesting ways to minimize the risks associated with these decisions, I feel the people who came up with this idea only took a half ass attempt at it. I mean so many people on the do not trade thread are "unverified". Also some are being unbanned where they were hacked with no evidence of the original owner having control of the account.

There's no point of arguing about going back because too much has happened and I know you won't go back on a decision you made but hopefully you're willing to work on ways to improve it. Look at the effect removing miniranks/ fun ranks had, some of these users are now even willing to reimburse to just get them back.

 

[Yousuckv2]

In your tiny tiny brain it's never once occurred to you that human beings respond to incentives.

A lot of these DNT accounts have surpressed donation perks. If people are willing to pay money to get donation perks, then maybe they are willing to pay back so they can get their donation perks back.

Rather than spraying your salty verbal diarrhea everywhere you could help figure out how to incentivize repayment. But of course you don't actually care if anyone gets repaid. All you care about is your fragile little ego which you've foolishly pinned to getting people banned on an internet forum

So tell me how the 'incentives' you've put in front of them so far have been working out?

They donated for perks yeah? They also scammed thus throwing those perks away and didn't seem to give a fuck about it then, and most don't seem to give a fuck about it now either? Why do you think there's some sort of incentive that will instantly make people start paying shit back? Did you possibly take into consideration the fact that most of them have everything back they wanted anyways and there's perhaps nothing else they could want that could help hurry along the repayment process? If you haven't come up with anything how am I supposed to with my tiny, tiny brain?

In many cases/pardon situations i've also helped staff track down a user's victims, the user's victim's victims, and so on in hopes that someone could be refunded. I've talked to some banned users in hopes of getting them to pay shit back and urged others upon me getting them banned to pay back what they took, especially if it's only a small amount. Even when I had Jay Zee's vader banned and he had no clue what he owed I went and looked into it for him and gave him the relevant information, but yeah I clearly don't care about anyone receiving their repayment, you clearly know what the fuck you're talking about.

You certainly don't have your head jammed firmly up your ass believing the notion that because you implemented this idea there are no downsides to it and it will inherently work.

 

[Yousuckv2]

I think this is a good / valid point to make.

While I obviously don't blame Richard for the Pardon system being how it was, I always personally felt like it was pay back all or nothing (This fked up my budgeting because I kept trying to budget a 1k+ expense all at once...STUPID on my part). Again - this is on me not anyone else. But it certainly made it a bit more difficult to pardon. Luckily for my own sanity I have a conscience though and running away forever was never something I planned to do.

It does sound like from other threads though that Richard has a plan for a streamlined pardon system. That's great news.

As for any DNT people that are just here to troll - if x amount of time passes just re-ban them and let them try their luck in the new pardon system when they decide they want to take responsibility for their mistakes.

Difference from your situation is a lot of people don't owe nearly as much and it shouldn't be hard for them to repay. If they really wanted to come back and repay, they could've done it easily. They had no desire to and vading is free, now Richard has given them a better option than vading which is also free and they are taking advantage of it, surprisingly still nobody is paying back a single dime. The pardon system should never have been an issue for people who actually paid shit back, issue is they expected an immediate unban and sometimes didn't get it because they were deemed a risk to the community. A shame on staff for deciding it may not be safe to unban someone and they may scam someone again, I know... shame on them for looking out for the community. Another difference is that many of these users don't have a conscience and are fine with running away. Big Rich said he's worried about users unbanned with DNT who have no intention of repayment, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I absolutely agree with you that anyone just here to troll without any intention of repaying jack shit should be rebanned and we can wave as the door hits them in the ass on the way out, problem is most of them don't want to take responsibility so Richard's answer was to cater to this.