Really sighing at some of these disputes

Liam · May 9, 2018

Ice Queen said:
This is after they were reported on Sythe.

The proof we can see as the public viewers of the dispute is not clear. Therefore I don't know what super powers you guys are using to come up with your speculations.

If you actually knew about the chinese banking system in relation to the rest of the world you'd understand my previous point also.

You can't simply just wire foreign currency (aka $12,000) out of a chinese bank account without detailed paperwork and permissions. As once it leaves the bank, it is considered "out of china", in which China has complex laws in relation to this even for native chinese people. That being said, even if Won used a third party escrow service to wire the funds from offshore to the gold seller, then there could have been complications in the wiring of the funds.

Eg:

Won's Chinese bank -> Escrow -> 3rd party moving the funds out of China -> escrow -> Gold seller.

Its difficult for me to explain in word diagrams like the one above as it can be done in different ways. However, it's a little easier than:

USBank through PP to gold seller PP, withdraw to bank.

or

US Bank -> Gold seller US Bank.

Back to my first point. The information that is public is not clear enough. I am not saying it hasn't been resolved, but I am saying there's no proof the guy filing the report hasn't been paid.

As for the "five year hunt". That's a load of rubbish and please back this up. That is nothing more than speculation. To be unbiased look at the evidence, rather than speculate. At no point in the report is there evidence of the user trying every day/week to find Won gold.

It is clear you were eager for me to respond by quoting me twice. So here you have your response, and you can react however you would like to it but I'm not going to waste my time any more.

Pegasus · May 9, 2018

Lime said:
The proof we can see as the public viewers of the dispute is not clear. Therefore I don't know what super powers you guys are using to come up with your speculations.

If you actually knew about the chinese banking system in relation to the rest of the world you'd understand my previous point also.

You can't simply just wire foreign currency (aka $12,000) out of a chinese bank account without detailed paperwork and permissions. As once it leaves the bank, it is considered "out of china", in which China has complex laws in relation to this even for native chinese people. That being said, even if Won used a third party escrow service to wire the funds from offshore to the gold seller, then there could have been complications in the wiring of the funds.

Eg:

Won's Chinese bank -> Escrow -> 3rd party moving the funds out of China -> escrow -> Gold seller.

Its difficult for me to explain in word diagrams like the one above as it can be done in different ways. However, it's a little easier than:

USBank through PP to gold seller PP, withdraw to bank.

or

US Bank -> Gold seller US Bank.

Back to my first point. The information that is public is not clear enough. I am not saying it hasn't been resolved, but I am saying there's no proof the guy filing the report hasn't been paid.

As for the "five year hunt". That's a load of rubbish and please back this up. That is nothing more than speculation. To be unbiased look at the evidence, rather than speculate. At no point in the report is there evidence of the user trying every day/week to find Won gold.

It is clear you were eager for me to respond by quoting me twice. So here you have your response, and you can react however you would like to it but I'm not going to waste my time any more.

Right. Going by your logic:
What is the retention period in China?
Let me help you out, it was 5 years before 2018 and it's 10 years since 2018.

Why was he not able to provide the transfer document? The bank closed? Or did the guy make it all up?

Also, he ignored a customer (who he's dealt with multiple times before) for over 9 MONTHS. This is UNACCEPTABLE. Only upon creation of a dispute on Sythe did they even bother to respond to him. This alone should warrant a TwC.

Multiple users got a look at all the evidence posted before mods removed sensitive information. This was an obvious scam, and they let him get away with it. It's as simple as that.

Liam · May 9, 2018

Ice Queen said:
Right. Going by your logic:
What is the retention period in China?
Let me help you out, it was 5 years before 2018 and it's 10 years since 2018.

Why was he not able to provide the transfer document? The bank closed? Or did the guy make it all up?

Also, he ignored a customer (who he's dealt with multiple times before) for over 9 MONTHS. This is UNACCEPTABLE. Only upon creation of a dispute on Sythe did they even bother to respond to him. This alone should warrant a TwC.

Multiple users got a look at all the evidence posted before mods removed sensitive information. This was an obvious scam, and they let him get away with it. It's as simple as that.

0:43 in video supports my theory. However it is just a theory.

The agent working for Won who doesn't know much of the situation says they used "WU" aka western union. They will have sent $12,000 worth of RMB (chinese yuan) to somebody in the US, who was then responsible for wiring it from a US bank to the seller. This business partner either made a mistake, scammed, or the seller did receive the money.

Again as a theory, based on the little evidence provided, it would be wrong for me to speculate. The point of this debate is the fact that @Antagonist made a very antagonistic remark generalizing the motives of reputable users here. I shot him down, then you jumped on board, so I have done the same to you. Now this is cleared up, it is laughable if you still want to debate me. The admins and the head of this website have given closure in the dispute, and nomatter how much people like you bitch and squeal, it is not going to change anything. Video made it crystal clear why the topic was closed, and that should be that. Regardless of whether or not it hurts people's feelings.

Pegasus · May 9, 2018

Lime said:
0:43 in video supports my theory. However it is just a theory.

The agent working for Won who doesn't know much of the situation says they used "WU" aka western union. They will have sent $12,000 worth of RMB (chinese yuan) to somebody in the US, who was then responsible for wiring it from a US bank to the seller. This business partner either made a mistake, scammed, or the seller did receive the money.

Again as a theory, based on the little evidence provided, it would be wrong for me to speculate. The point of this debate is the fact that @Antagonist made a very antagonistic remark generalizing the motives of reputable users here. I shot him down, then you jumped on board, so I have done the same to you. Now this is cleared up, it is laughable if you still want to debate me. The admins and the head of this website have given closure in the dispute, and nomatter how much people like you bitch and squeal, it is not going to change anything. Video made it crystal clear why the topic was closed, and that should be that. Regardless of whether or not it hurts people's feelings.

How did you shoot me down? You're using a theory, I'm using facts.
Nobody here is expecting the outcome to be changed, they are just mocking the end result.

Imagine you got scammed 10 years ago and have tried to contact said users the first 2 years to no avail. Today you find out they are a successful business, would you not come for your money?

Everyone here cries "free market", but as proven by @A Broken Man this was not the case for some moderators. Today it was proven that if you are a reputable user, you can get away with scamming newcomers or less reputable users. That is all.

Don't think you are above me, you are not. I pity you.

EDIT: I have a question for you. They said that he would have to take it up on another forum. What happens if they decide to ban/dnt Won on that website. Will he get DNT'd here for off-site scamming, or will he walk? Answer me that.

Liam · May 9, 2018

Ice Queen said:
How did you shoot me down? You're using a theory, I'm using facts.
Nobody here is expecting the outcome to be changed, they are just mocking the end result.

Imagine you got scammed 10 years ago and have tried to contact said users the first 2 years to no avail. Today you find out they are a successful business, would you not come for your money?

Everyone here cries "free market", but as proven by @A Broken Man this was not the case for some moderators. Today it was proven that if you are a reputable user, you can get away with scamming newcomers or less reputable users. That is all.

Don't think you are above me, you are not. I pity you.

EDIT: I have a question for you. They said that he would have to take it up on another forum. What happens if they decide to ban/dnt Won on that website. Will he get DNT'd here for off-site scamming, or will he walk? Answer me that.

Ok as you asked me a question I will respond. I don't like to be rude.

As for your manbaby rant above it, we'll leave that for other people to enjoy.

Good question, but in answering it wouldn't I be speculating? Who knows what will happen? Do you know?

Pegasus · May 9, 2018

Lime said:
Ok as you asked me a question I will respond. I don't like to be rude.

As for your manbaby rant above it, we'll leave that for other people to enjoy.

Good question, but in answering it wouldn't I be speculating? Who knows what will happen? Do you know?

Let me simplify it for you: If a member was denounced as a scammer on a website, what happens on Sythe? Yes, they get DNT'd. Why should it be any different for Won?

Honestly, I meant no offense to you but you spoke to me in a downgrading manner. I apologize if I came off rude.

Pikachu · May 9, 2018

There such a simple soultion to this,

as I stated I have no real opinion on the subject, as it doesn't really affect me,

As seen the video:

The transaction was done on skype quite clearly, How to recover 3 year chat history on Skype

If the user still has his pc from back then, or at least the hard drive, he should be able to recover the messages as long as he hasn't deleted the skype folder: main.db ,
he should simply just have them all as back then they didn't upload message's to the cloud.

@Ss1212

Liam · May 9, 2018

Ice Queen said:
Let me simplify it for you: If a member was denounced as a scammer on a website, what happens on Sythe? Yes, they get DNT'd. Why should it be any different for Won?

Honestly, I meant no offense to you but you spoke to me in a downgrading manner. I apologize if I came off rude.

Then hopefully the guy who filed the report will take videos advice and take it to another forum. I don't really see what else can be done here. It is a unique and very difficult situation. Both party's have to be respected so its difficult not to speculate. All onlookers are going to have conflicting views like yours and mine. But our opinions don't matter. I'm not saying anything Won has done is unnacceptable, such as the length of time replying etc, but just because there is some apparent negligence doesn't automatically make somebody a scammer.

I wouldn't really say I'm arguing with you. I'm just trying to reason with you without getting too heated. I flipped on Antagonist because its not a healthy comment for others to read and make judgments about other market users, or even get corrupt ideas from. This isn't spam forum so i wouldn't consider his comment to be trolling, even if it is somewhat arrogant.

Antagonist · May 10, 2018

Lime said:
Then hopefully the guy who filed the report will take videos advice and take it to another forum. I don't really see what else can be done here. It is a unique and very difficult situation. Both party's have to be respected so its difficult not to speculate. All onlookers are going to have conflicting views like yours and mine. But our opinions don't matter. I'm not saying anything Won has done is unnacceptable, such as the length of time replying etc, but just because there is some apparent negligence doesn't automatically make somebody a scammer.

I wouldn't really say I'm arguing with you. I'm just trying to reason with you without getting too heated. I flipped on Antagonist because its not a healthy comment for others to read and make judgments about other market users, or even get corrupt ideas from. This isn't spam forum so i wouldn't consider his comment to be trolling, even if it is somewhat arrogant.

Here's my perspective an i'll explain you why I think the user wasn't "scammed" so to say, but IS OWED the money.

Scenario 1:
Won, or the person that Won was using to get the money to the user had no intentions of paying and simply scammed due to x, y, z reason *UNLIKELY*

Scenario 2:
Won, or the person that Won used to get the money to the user had banking issues in which the money was not able to be received. *THIS IS NOT THE SELLERS FAULT THAT THEY HAD BANKING ISSUES TO GET THE MONEY OUT OF CHINA, THEY SHOULD STILL BE LIABLE*

My argument is no matter which scenario you buy, they owe him the money, and I still strongly believe it and we're all entitled to our opinion on the matter which we're discussing here. I don't care the explanation, or who you believe, but there's no indication that a scenario 3 happened where the user was paid and has been demanding payment for over 5 years now.

Their banking issue is not the fault of the seller, they should be liable to figure it out. Same thing if a user "sent" $100 on paypal, and paypal held their funds. That's not considered to PAID.

Liam · May 10, 2018

Antagonist said:
Here's my perspective an i'll explain you why I think the user wasn't "scammed" so to say, but IS OWED the money.

Scenario 1:
Won, or the person that Won was using to get the money to the user had no intentions of paying and simply scammed due to x, y, z reason *UNLIKELY*

Scenario 2:
Won, or the person that Won used to get the money to the user had banking issues in which the money was not able to be received. *THIS IS NOT THE SELLERS FAULT THAT THEY HAD BANKING ISSUES TO GET THE MONEY OUT OF CHINA, THEY SHOULD STILL BE LIABLE*

My argument is no matter which scenario you buy, they owe him the money, and I still strongly believe it and we're all entitled to our opinion on the matter which we're discussing here. I don't care the explanation, or who you believe, but there's no indication that a scenario 3 happened where the user was paid and has been demanding payment for over 5 years now.

Their banking issue is not the fault of the seller, they should be liable to figure it out. Same thing if a user "sent" $100 on paypal, and paypal held their funds. That's not considered to PAID.

I understand your point of view completely. If more evidence was public and there was a situation where we knew this money had vanished to then I'd completely support your second scenario

Online · May 10, 2018

Tyler said:
Staff dont ban/DNT on hearsay.

https://www.sythe.org/posts/29550056/
@Yikes

Dbuffed · May 10, 2018

Online said:
https://www.sythe.org/posts/29550056/
@Yikes

Of course @Tyler will try to claim something is wrong. It makes him look bad after all the time and effort he put into screwing people whilst he was a moderator.

@anyone else, fucking hell man. I believe what I believe and i'm sure many others agree with me, and I am not going to argue facts or theory with you @Lime as you are a good friend Liam.

I just find it a complete shame that they have let this go off how it has, regardless of the length it took to dispute it, that's just irrelevant and you need to think of all the pay days he has had since. Normally when you buy/sell something you check up that it has been done correctly, it seems otherwise here though.

Amei · May 10, 2018

A Broken Man said:
There such a simple soultion to this,

as I stated I have no real opinion on the subject, as it doesn't really affect me,

As seen the video:

The transaction was done on skype quite clearly, How to recover 3 year chat history on Skype

If the user still has his pc from back then, or at least the hard drive, he should be able to recover the messages as long as he hasn't deleted the skype folder: main.db ,
he should simply just have them all as back then they didn't upload message's to the cloud.

@Ss1212

It's possible (or it was) to fake those messages with enough effort, so Skype messages from 5 years ago aren't really much use all these years later.

Ice Queen said:
If evidence of theft was found against a successful company, they would have been fined more than they could afford and would most probably have to shut down.

You're really underestimating the size of their business.

Antagonist · May 10, 2018

Amei said:
It's possible (or it was) to fake those messages with enough effort, so Skype messages from 5 years ago aren't really much use all these years later.

You're really underestimating the size of their business.

How do people come to conclusions of "It's possible to fake those messages"... Won never denied any of the messages, they're not even remotely contested as not being true.

Amei · May 10, 2018

Antagonist said:
How do people come to conclusions of "It's possible to fake those messages"... Won never denied any of the messages, they're not even remotely contested as not being true.

I was replying to ABM in general, not specifically about this case.

Pegasus · May 10, 2018

Amei said:
You're really underestimating the size of their business.

I wasn't specifically talking about their business. I was just speaking in general.
Should a company be found guilty of fraud/theft, more likely than not they will be forced to shut down because they are unable to pay the fine they receive.

In this case, though, Won only had to pay 12,000 USD. I'm positive that's pocket change for him, never claimed otherwise.

John Devola · May 10, 2018

A Broken Man said:
There such a simple soultion to this,

as I stated I have no real opinion on the subject, as it doesn't really affect me,

As seen the video:

The transaction was done on skype quite clearly, How to recover 3 year chat history on Skype

If the user still has his pc from back then, or at least the hard drive, he should be able to recover the messages as long as he hasn't deleted the skype folder: main.db ,
he should simply just have them all as back then they didn't upload message's to the cloud.

Not quite sure what u are saying here

#1 this was 5 years ago, not 3 (video is from 2013)

#2 He literally says in the skype convo, "Tell your worker my MSN she will remember me"

Amei · May 10, 2018

Ice Queen said:
I wasn't specifically talking about their business. I was just speaking in general.
Should a company be found guilty of fraud/theft, more likely than not they will be forced to shut down because they are unable to pay the fine they receive.

In this case, though, Won only had to pay 12,000 USD. I'm positive that's pocket change for him, never claimed otherwise.

Oh mb. Things are different enough in China that any fines would be easily within what the company is able to afford, but for a company based anywhere else you'd probably be right. China's a weird place.

R2Pleasent · Jun 20, 2018

There's a couple of reasons why Sythe staff are not in the proper position to moderate this dispute. Firstly, it's 5 years old. It means much of the evidence that would be asked for normally is no longer available. It's quite difficult to access transaction histories in online banking beyond 1-2 years.

Another issue is that the seller used a bank wire as payment method. Bank wire disputes are more difficult to mediate, because all banks have different ways of recording the transactions. It's difficult to tell whether a bank wire has actually been sent or received based on online statements. A bank wire can technically remain in limbo for a long time, and it can be difficult to figure out who made the mistake.

Finally, WonGold's accounts and statements are in Chinese. It can be difficult to decipher anything from the documents they produce. Even more difficult to verify authenticity. No Sythe Staff speak fluent Chinese. Plus, WonGold's staff are Chinese, so they can't fully communicate their side of the story.

One thing I'd say is that it should be possible for WonGold to produce a document which confirms the transaction was sent. A "bank wire trace". Of course, they have given reasons why this is no longer possible, and it does relate to the 5 year+ period since the transaction, but it's still odd.

All together this just isn't a dispute that Sythe staff can properly mediate with the information they have available.

EDIT: Lesson here is, if it ever takes somebody more than 1 month to pay you, open a Sythe dispute. I don't care who it is, or what is the reason. Open a dispute. Even if you think they are legitimate, even if they are your friends, just open a dispute so that it is on record.

Fyrix · Jun 22, 2018

Revolt this at fally pls. $10k scammed in rs! oh no!

Really sighing at some of these disputes

More options

Mint | Making $ Online in 2026!

Professor is gay.

Mint | Making $ Online in 2026!

Professor is gay.

Mint | Making $ Online in 2026!

Professor is gay.

Legend

Mint | Making $ Online in 2026!

Antagonist

Active Member

Mint | Making $ Online in 2026!

Online

'ello

Legend

Let me kill Nex for you

Antagonist

Active Member

Let me kill Nex for you

Professor is gay.

John Devola

Apprentice

Let me kill Nex for you

GGBoost.com - ELO Boosting Service

Discord: rpgstock#0777