People on welfare. Lazy, or a reason?

Only because they have a false sense of security provided by the nanny state. Regardless; if they want to ignore reality then they'll have to live (or die) with the consequences. I won't pay through the nose for their ignorance and stupidity.

Its nothing but theft. The end does not justify the means. It never has, it never will. Each action in itself must be moral for the sum to be moral. Welfare is immoral because it is funded with stolen money.

 

Its nothing to do with belief. Morality is objective. You assert a false moral premise, on which you base your argument. That premise insists that I must be enslaved to men of lesser ability, as punishment for my ongoing existence.

I reject your false morality with the simple argument: My existence is not immoral, it is therefore moral. Therefore I need make no atonement for my existence, as I have done nothing wrong by simply being here.

Check your moral premises, my friend.

 

Firstly you are again asserting that my existence is evil. This is a false assertion. To assert that any man's existence is evil is to assert that all men's existence is evil. To exist is to live. Therefore the only way to satisfy your moral premise is to cease to exist: death. Your's is the morality of death.

Morality not subjective, its objective.

I actually have two axiomatic proofs of this now. Allow me to share the latest one. (For the other one check out the thread on objective morality.)
If you can spot a syllogistic flaw please tell me and I'll review it.


Axiom: Existence exists.

1. Existence exists.
1a. A is A. 'A thing' can only exist as itself and nothing else. For a thing to exist as something other than itself is impossible. (The law of identity.)
2. I am conscious of this axiom (Existence exists); therefore consciousness exists and I am conscious.

3. I am conscious.
+3aa. To be conscious is to have the ability to think. To think is to have free will; Therefore I have free will.
+3ab. I have free will, therefore I have the ability to make decisions.

3. I am conscious.
+3ba. I am conscious, and therefore I am conscious 'of things'; 'Things' are elements of reality or abstractions drawn from elements or processes in reality. 'Things' adhere to the law of identity. Hence I have the ability to learn about and know of reality.
+3bb. I (naively) know of the law of causality (cause and effect) as that is the process by which learning occurs.

4. I have free will and the ability to learn and know of reality. I have the ability to make decisions based on my knowledge of reality as learned by cause and effect.

5. I can make correct decisions.
5a. I can make incorrect decisions.

6. Therefore Correct and Incorrect, 'Right and wrong', decisions exist.

7. Decisions, which are made, can either be right or wrong, correct or incorrect, therefore man does not automatically know which decision will be the correct decision. Morality is the process by which man determines if his decision is 'right or wrong', therefore Morality exists.

8. Morality is dependent on the premise of the absolute existence of reality and man's existence and interaction within it.

9. Morality is objective.

 

Haha

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

My friend it is not the capitalist who is responsible for all the suffering in the world, it is the cannibalist; People who's philosophy is to cheat lie and steal their way through life. Government, mafia, gangs, tribes.

Capitalism is responsible for all that is good in the world. Capitalism is freedom. Everything else is slavery.

Your very existence was only made possible through capitalism. The cheap food that feeds you is a product of capitalism. The house over your head is a product of capitalism. Your 80 year lifespan, a product of capitalism. Your car, your television, electricity, comfortable shoes, the internet, antibiotics, aeroplanes, space flight, satellite communications, trains, sky scrapers, cheap fuel, nuclear power plants, xrays, refrigerators, electric lighting, etc.

The only reason the earth can even support 6.5 billion people is capitalism.

You don't realize that you are promoting humans go back to pretechnology. You advocate a 25 year lifespan spent doing backbreaking labour to feed yourself day to day working on a rice plantation.

You advocate the die back of humanity to less than half a billion, which is all that the earth will support without the virtues of capitalism. You are sentencing 6 billion innocent people to death. Yours is the morality of death.

 

Capitalism is NOT immoral. In fact it is the most ethical of all social systems.

Why do you think you enjoy so much comfort and others dont? It is because you have elements of capitalism in your society and they DONT.

You must understand that capitalism is moral, all other systems are immoral.

Consider the following.

1. Existence is not evil.
2. I exist and to exist I must live; to not exist is to not live. Therefore to live is not evil.
3. To live I must sustain myself.
3. To sustain myself I must think, as man's mind his is main tool of survival.
4. To sustain myself I must be able to own property. If I cannot own property then how can I own the food that I eat. Eating is a necessary function of survival, and is therefore necessary to existence.
5. All men must eat to survive. Therefore to eat another man's food is to deny that man his continued survival, and therefore his continued existence. Therefore to eat, or steal, another man's food is immoral, as his existence is moral and you are denying his existence.
6. Existence and private property are moral.
7. Voluntary trade of services and goods is only performed where the trade is of mutual benefit for both parties. Private property is moral, existence is moral, thinking is moral, and therefore free trade is also moral, as it rests on these premises.
8. Free trade, private property, free will, and life are moral. Therefore anything that denies man these rights is immoral.
9. Communism denies the right to private property and free trade. Therefore communism is immoral.
10. Capitalism denies none of these fundamental rights. Capitalism is defined as a social system wherein men are free to have and own and produce property (and wealth) and to trade this property with others for goods or services voluntarily, on the free market, with no force or coercion involved. Capitalism preserves the right to free trade, private property, free will and existence. Capitalism is therefore moral.

 

The opposite is a system where the strong suffer and die 'just because' it is not their fault that the weak exist.

Yes, greedy and selfish. Both of which are incredible virtues, even if you do not realize it.

The inventor is greedy and selfish, as is the capitalist (who is a lesser of the inventor but shares the same values.)

The inventor is the root of all wealth. The man who invented the polyphaze AC generator, tesla, is solely responsible for saving quadrillions of manhours of work, through his selfishness and greed. Instead of giving his money to the undeserving poor he presued his own goals, as men are meant to. Being a man of the mind he conqured one more piece of reality through his rational understanding of the universe. The result is that all men now lead much better lives because of his generosity in being selfish and greedy.

This is, in fact, how all inventions you take for granted came about. It is in fact the root of all wealth creation.

What you advocate is an end to wealth creation. You advocate death.

Furthermore, the people you are trying to help in these despotic countries are better off without your handouts. By giving them the means to continued survival, without action on their own, you sanction the system under which they live. Consider the cannibalism that took place in soviet Russia before its downfall. If America had shipped free food over to Russia to keep it's serfs alive then the soviet meat grinder would still exist. You prolong, and therefore sanction, the existence of a terrific evil through your actions. You sentence many more people to death than you save.

What tripe. My arguments are based on irrefutable axioms, historic evidence, and economic understanding. I've approached this from philosophical, practical and mathematical standpoints. No matter where you start, the conclusion is ALWAYS the same:

Freedom works. Freedom is the most moral. It is freedom which we must strive to preserve. It is freedom which allows men to conquer and control reality. It is ONLY freedom which will save the human race.

 

No. I'm saying people should be greedy, and selfish, and free. Because that is the most moral and practical of all other courses of action. Because no man is responsible for the actions of any other man. Because no man is responsible for any other man. Because no man's existence should depend on the existence of another man without that man's voluntary consent. Because slavery is death.