Pardoned users for scamming should receive a twc

@Mercedes

Are any other words really needed?

 

I support as the trade with caution would link to their pardon/the actual scam thread so the user wanting to trade them is actually aware they have scammed in the past. If they just see a regular member they will just assume they had never been banned.

 

A TWC seems silly. However I would support something along the lines of a user title that refers back to someone's pardon if they have recently pardoned. Question is, how long would it stay? You do know that by this suggestion you're making your own grave ready?

 

If a pardon is suppose to be a clean slate, why would they receive a TWC? The whole point of taking away the conditional pardoning (user gets TWC if pardon is accepted, placed in last chance usergroup, etc.) is so that pardoning users aren't treated with negativity and are accepted for what you've done, and it's over with. If they think you're a threat, you shouldn't be pardoned.

 

This and even though I believed @Mercedes was a sketchy person all the time he's been on Sythe we can't hold them accountable for something that hasn't happened yet. It seems silly to vote No on DNT removals or pardons just because we believe an user should not be trusted. There's only so much we can do as staff and that is punish him for the things he has done, but also allowing them a way back if they meet a certain amount of requirements; which he did. I'm not feeling bad at all for allowing him back to the community at all. He screwed things up, we didn't. Hopefully he regrets his decisions sincerely once, because he'll never learn to do business and deal with money properly this way.

It sickens me that the community believes we could've done anything to prevent this.

 

@Wortel I didn't scam plz re read title.

#2 id be happy to take a twc to implement this rule.

#3 you should feel bad that the staff let him back in the community. I grant u that it wasn't possible to tell he would scam quit (although since he was racks on racks aparently this is debatable). Still whether it's your fault or not I would still feel bad that through my actions a lot of people got scammed for a lot of money.

I'm not saying blame yourself or staff. I'm saying that your denial sickens me. This is an opportunity for all staff to learn and become better. Not to deny that it's not their fault and theirs nothing they can do

 

Just looked into what happened. What an embarrassment for the Sythe staff. I can see why you are so defensive. But in all Honesty it is the staff's fault who collectively decided to pardon a scammer. When it comes to things like pardons, people have to be able to make decisive judgement calls on a person's character, and you cant afford to let the wrong guy back in because you KNOW that if he is insincere, he WILL use his old vouches and reputation to scam JUST LIKE HE DID PREVIOUSLY.

 

Support this 100%, I don't see why they shouldn't get a TWC? They are literally getting pardoned for scamming, you should approach a trade with them cautiously.

That being said, people also need to learn to research who they're buying from and not trust someone just because they donate.

 

Do Criminal Convictions Have to Stay on Your Records Forever?

 

I know this isn't quite in context and I love you but isn't that exactly staff's job, to not vote yes on pardons if they don't feel the person can be trusted to rejoin the community and not scam? A while ago staff weren't pressured to accept every pardon in site by Richard's bullshit to get every single member he can on his dying site so a lot fewer pardons were accepted because it was only people who deserved it and who likely wouldn't scam. Clearly things aren't working out now because a lot of pardoned users end up banned again, most of them for scamming (just looking at this year's list: Hello Its Me, Coolperson3, xSeventeen17, Enemee, Oldbeast1994 for like the 5th time???, Dbl Frostbite, Folt who got pardoned AGAIN?, Deniese-Ricardo, QBDyce who also got pardoned again, Skeptic, Lastofuspt2, and now Mercedes and Ext Bail who were both banned in the same day.) Obviously not all of these were preventable, but i'm sure some of them could have been prevented had staff actually taken into account whether or not they believed the individual would scam again. Oldbeast had scammed like 5 times, Folt is a serial scammer/sniper, Deniese-Ricardo impersonated an admin to scam pocket change and Mercedes was literally sketchy from the second of his arrival on Sythe.... I'm not saying to deny every pardon because "the person might scam again", but staff should definitely be discussing this when the pardon goes to the staff lounge as to whether or not they believe the person should be rejoining the community...?

That being said, I don't blame you or the staff for what Mercedes did because as I said above it's pretty evident he planned on it from the beginning and was going to do it one way or another. However, I don't feel that the staff absolutely couldn't have done a single thing to potentially prevent this, and when voting on pardons in the staff lounge, I feel the absolute minimum to be done could be to discuss this.

To respond to OP, this would be pointless because TWC is a completely useless rank that in all reality doesn't do anything. They also used to allow this where they would pardon a user with a TWC or whatever but they removed conditional pardons so I assume they won't be bringing that back.

If you want someone to blame for this happening, blame Richard. He's desperate for members on his website to the extent that he's pretty much made a system for scammers to pay back minuscule amounts, come back with little to no issue and scam considerably more.

 

How about having your vouches wiped after a pardon for scamming. Wouldn't be hard for staff to archive the threads and makes it so people couldn't rely on previous trust (which they broke when they scammed.) This may not prevent them from scamming again but will 100% not allow them to walk away with hundreds of dollars.

Considering vouches are the main staple of trade on this site, its a huge set back however still allows you to rebuild your reputation. People are less likely to scam if they know there is more than just a pardon between them and returning.

I have been pardoned 3 or 4 times (hacked sythe account used to scam, evasion, paypal limit during a trade, owing money to Matt) myself, don't consider myself a threat to anyone. But its a case by case basis.

 

A TWC is just another obstacle. Its pretty clear that @Mercedes has this planned for a while and if he had a TWC for a month or two it would have just been postponed. The point of a pardon is to try and make things right with the victim and prevent ban evasion.

As you can see with the @Mercedes incident mostly new members are the victims (which is almost always the case). This stems from the lack of knowledge of how the site works (perhaps these users would not have traded with him if they knew he was pardoned for scamming). I think having users that were pardoned for scamming should have a mark on their profile that links back to their pardon. It doesn't have to be massive or have a negative connotation but there should be something.

Unfortunately, this would just band aid the issue but as we all know there is nothing we can do about someone scam quitting.

Also; I like what @HNCdice mentioned above, I think this is an excellent idea.

Edit: Also I should have mentioned that any of these "fixes" also discourage users from pardoning in the first place. It has a double edged sword effect; you prevent repaying the victims on one hand, but you also prevent future scams on the other.

 

Wasn't going to chip in on this as I wouldn't mind either scenario, but having read @HNCdice's suggestion it sparked some interest. However, I personally think it'd be a good idea to take this further. The only reason people would pardon rather than just save time and ban evade (I believe) is to get back to smooth trading with an account which has built up a certain image on the site. If you strip these people of EVERYTHING, they'd truly need to start again and, even if people are going to re-offend (which, unfortunately, is inevitable in some cases i.e. Mercedes) then it'll slow this process down and possibly reduce the magnitude - remove donor status, remove vouches, archive their old threads, everything. Allow them to come back, sure, but make them start from 0. They shouldn't be handed back an account that's perfect to scam unsuspecting members (let's be honest - $666 donor & 150+ vouches allowed Mercedes to make people go first and capitalise on his scam quit. To be perfectly honest it's a relief he didn't take way more) and I believe my idea, albeit drastic, could prevent this.

 

I agree with removing donor status, however, if you remove too much then people have no reason to pay the users they scammed to get their account back, and would instead just take their chances on creating a new account all together.

 

Whats the point of pardoning and coming back then? I know you have good intentions here, but if you strip all the benefits of pardoning (getting back your account with donor status, join date, posts) then nobody is going to.

 

Pretty much 100% my thoughts. Agree with your sentiments. Unfortunately there is no perfect solution, but all we can do is hope for the best.

Suggestions I have seen so far, some I like more than others

• Wiping vouches
• Giving TWC
• Make them start a new account
• Remove their donor status

I think the last one would help, obviously it wouldnt be a complete solution but I think that its a start. What do you think @Yousuckv2

 

• Wiping vouches

I highly agree on this one, as all the vouches prior the scam shouldn't matter anymore, because the person already scammed while having them, so it's misleading using them as a form of trust

• Giving TWC

I think this should also be added, but it shouldn't be permanent, but i don't think only time should be taken into consideration when removing it, but also amount of trades that happened after ban was lifted, so we avoid them just being inactive for some time and coming back to scam

• Make them start a new account

This kinda defeats the whole purpose, as they can just ban evade

• Remove their donor status

Well sythe highly encourages not to take donor status as a sign of trust, and they kinda donated it anyway, so i think it would be wrong to do that, but i see your point.

 

I'd have to disagree with you. Putting this situation aside; we have had PLENTY of people pardon and never reoffend the rules. It's definitely a hard judgement call on whether to allow someone back into the community after scamming, but, we are online. There are plenty on conartists out there looking to make a quick couple bucks and would dedicate time into pretending to prove that they're a changed character. As a member, I look through a majority of pardons and jot down a mental note of how I feel about the pardon and situation, and you know, a lot of the times I agree with pardoning a user that the staff has agreed on.

How in the world are you going to judge a persons character and morals over the internet? Unfortunately, there's not a solid way to really correlate whether someones actions are harmful or not. Like mentioned previously, there are a lot of users here who have been banned who will put effort and even money into coming back onto the forum, just to scam again and possibly make even more money than before. You simply can't 100% guarantee someone won't be a repeat offender, so there is absolutely no way you can blame the staff for their judgement call on the user who had shown remorse for his actions and seemed to have a change in character.

 

Your suggestion has a lot of depth and could definitely be a good consideration.

Wiping pardoned users vouch threads is definitely a step in the right direction, because it benefits:

• allows user to regain access to forum with no previous trust (as mentioned in previous posts, pardons are for a CLEAN SLATE of all wrong doings. If member scams, they accumulated such trades and vouches before or while they decided to steal, therefore, those should become void and have to restart).
• Allows user to have a "clean slate" (mentioned previously) and no threat to community
• Allows user to keep donor status (which, rightfully deserved)
• Allows user to have motivation to become legitimate, rather than make a market thread and scam, then repeat.
• Doesn't wipe post count/join date/other profile specifics, to allow them to feel like they're not completely restarting and still have been apart of this forum

Definitely something to consider. A lot of my bullets are really wrapped around the specific idea that they aren't starting from scratch, but don't have the accumulated trust as they would if they just came back like nothing happened. (Note: Hacked profiles that scam would not be considered in this category).

 

A pardon is a 100% clean slate and thats the way it should stay. Once someone has been forgiven its time to let it go