Market Rule Change - Asking Users to Post on Threads [Clarified 4/5/2015]

Like TeamTofu said,I dont know whats point of this rules,And when i sell gold,buyer fill one format,i can see all of the info from him,then ill see if i can sell to him according to his sythe account.

 

We won't come after you for people posting in your thread. If the post is not contributing to the thread, it may be deleted, but you won't be infracted for that. The infractions are for requesting spam on your thread.

You are one of the primary abusers of the confirmation posts. They're spam. You can get all that info from them through Skype / PM / Live Chat.

1) It likely won't be heavily enforced in other sections. However, if we see people are requesting useless spam be posting on their threads, they will be warned, and potentially infracted. This is consistent with previously existing Sythe rules.

2) It has always been within the rules to have vouches posted on the thread pertaining to the service being provided. It is up to you whether you request your vouch there or on your vouch thread.

3) For sections such as Training, order forms are important. This is because orders are highly customized. For that reason, you are free to continue requesting prior to contact with the customer. However, if the customer is already in contact with you through Skype / Live Chat, I don't see why you would need them to post an order form on your thread.

4) Once again, it is your choice whether to use a Vouch thread or your Sales thread for vouches.

 

What about this? is it even possible to update that

 

Good to know, thanks

 

I will comply with this rule, although I do have a few questions regarding this:

1)

I honestly don't understand how mods are able to distinguish which posts are requested and which posts are just posted by the customer without asking. R2, I see in your responses that you will simply just delete them if they did it without asking, but how will you know whether or not to infract them? To my understanding, we are suppose to just dispute any incorrect infractions with this rule. Although, what type of evidence will be accepted in appealing it. This makes it a very tedious and difficult process.

2) What happened to Sythe being a "Free Market"? If indirect poaching is allowed (PMing Competitors Customer), what makes this worst? There is no unfair advantage to having customers confirm via post rather than PM. Every thread had the right to do so.

The definition of Free Market

It just doesn't make sense to me how indirect poaching is allowed, but having customers confirm isn't.

3) Shops are at a clear disadvantage. If you take a look at the topics, random members who post for the first time that they are selling gold tend not to leave their contact information. The only way to contact them is to post. This means they will be at the top the entire time, which is what this rule is trying to prevent. How will you fix that issue?

I appreciate all the work that is being done in order to help build upon the current market we have.

 

We will only post infractions when we have evidence of the request. We aren't going to be infraction-happy on this rule. If you don't ask people to post spam on your threads, then you will be fine. The bottom line is, the only time you ask someone to post on your thread is when they are posting a vouch. Period. If you follow that rule, you won't be infracted. It's not complicated.

A free market still needs to have basic rules which govern the way business is done. We have an 8 hour bump rule. If we didn't, people would be able to just post on their thread every 2 minutes. It would be ridiculous. So yes, there needs to be basic rules which promote an equal and organized forum. We want Sythe to be user-friendly. It's advantageous to every seller on this forum in the long run.

One of the primary reasons Sythe has prospered is that there is an atmosphere of fairness and equality. This loophole allowed certain members of the site to keep their posts essentially stickied to the top of the forums. It created an atmosphere where if you didn't demand every customer to post useless spam on your thread, you would have greatly reduced exposure.

Poaching is a completely separate topic. Two wrongs don't make a right. If you would like to continue the discourse on Poaching then I say go to the Feedback forums. I understand your distaste for the practice and I agree with you that it is unprofessional. But it is a completely separate issue.

I disagree. Shops are not at a "clear disadvantage". Show me evidence that single-sale posts are dominating the forums. The vast majority of threads are shops anyways on Gold/Item.

Thank you, and I hope you understand that these rules are being implemented to promote equality and to continue allowing new members to throw up their own businesses without being swamped by the bigger players. You are a fine example of how newer members can come in and throw up a business and still be successful. Be grateful, because not many Forums / Markets are this way.

 

That doesn't quite answer my question. How would the process work? How will you judge whether or not its intentional. You cannot simply judge whether or not we asked for a post by having someone simply say "talking to you on live chat". My point is that it is near impossible to handle and almost unfair to hand out infraction points.

While a free market has a rules, I simply cannot understand how this rule helps out the free mark. While it is said that small reputation users get an unfair advantage due to the bigger threads being on top, its the same thing I had to deal with when I first started out; Look where I am now. We simply cannot add rules just because it's not fair to everyone, it's fair competition. Just as we get customers to post on our threads, they have every right to do so as well; It's not a unfair advantage. There's a HUGE difference between having an active thread and having a sticky thread.

I hope this is next on your agenda ^_^ .

When single-sale posts are posted, the majority simply don't leave contact information. Users are then forced to post on their thread asking to buying it and to add them on skype. Either add the rule that they must leave their contact information and consider people who say "add me on skype" spam or remove the new rule imposed.

I understand that this forum is a privilege and I will not take that for granted. While I may seem like a newer member, there are many reasons why this forum has survived for so long. It's because of the "Free Market" aspect. It's what keeps people donating to this forum to keep it alive. I understand updates are necessary to help maintain and build upon the 'perfect' forum, but I don't believe this is the right step.

 

RSBlue, the reality is that asking someone to post "Talking on Live Chat" on your thread is Spam. Infractions will not be handed out unless there is proof that those posts were requested by the OP. There's no need to make this so complicated.

 

Again, the answer given is very vague. I'm not trying to make this complicated. I am simply stating that the way this will be enforced is not set in stone. There will be no way to tell if its requested or not.

 

I won't share how we will collect evidence to prove it was requested. All I can say is that you are incorrect on the vagueness. It is extremely straightforward to prove that someone requested a post on their thread. If you can't put together how it is done, then you'll have to just take my word for it.

 

God bless R2 <3. Next step perhaps remove the "PMing competitions customers" tolerance? As a big seller who doesn't feel the need to start pming dozens of people who vouched for someone else, you must clearly be against this somewhat yourself? You must have had people reporting other sellers attacking your business this way? I understand Sythe is a free market but seeing as how more firm rules are being applied perhaps this could be on the list of things to change as well? Imo having tolerance towards this isn't being "a free market" its being an asshole towards your competition (pointed at the sellers pming competitions customers, not pointed towards sythe for having tolerance towards this.) rather then respecting them and being a competitive marketeer.

 

Not doing something doesn't automatically make you against doing it.

It's not attacking your business to compete with it.

Clearly not understanding.

The rule is that you can't bump your thread except once per 8 hours, telling a customer to use their account to bump your thread in order to not get caught is a violation of the rule, not a new rule entirely.

If someone notifies your customer that they can provide the same service at a lower cost to them, it's not "being an asshole".

 

I can't help but believe that was for R2's personal benefit and hence why he presumably argued for it to be pushed though. His company's higher prices now lead to less activity on his thread compared to other sellers who are able to court more customers with lower prices. In a free market, customers that focus on a specific business and approach it (due to better prices) should be able to bump the thread even if a transaction isn't finished. It's typically showing that they have a lower price. This isn't always the case, but there's a reason a buyer approached a specific seller, and this "new rule" is potentially harmful to consumers.

 

Competing is offering lower prices, offering a better service, faster delivery. Perhaps even put up a banner. Invest more in your business, hire friendlier staff, so on. In other words highlight the positive side of your business. THAT is what being competitive is about. PMing people stuff like "I think you overpaid with that other service, why don't you use mine instead next time?" is not being competitive. Along side highlighting your positive aspects you're also trying to drag your competition through the mud. You say i clearly don't understand the concept of a free market? I remember how hard it was to get a website off the ground, start selling my first few mills, build up my first few customers. Trust me, it's hard enough as it is without all this so called "competition" trying to drag your name through shit. A "free" market would also imply new and beginning marketeers to have a shot at establishing a decent income. Not having their customers nicked by bigger sellers who can buy in for less and thus sell for less just because they have a bigger name. If "free" implies that everyone can do whatever the hell they want just so they can get more income then i guess other tactics like DDOSING and hacking are part of the "free" market as well. Because whichever way you look at it, if you are trying to gain MORE income by making sure your competition has LESS income then we are talking about an attack on your business rather then just being "competitive". What strikes me odd is that only the people who are marketeers consider the whole "pming customers" a dick move. While people who don't sell anything or are pulling the dick move as well consider this to be "competitive".

Yes i know how the previous rule system worked. This update is a good step towards the "free market" spirit. Giving smaller sellers a better opportunity to get more sales because the bigger sellers get 1 bump per trade instead of 2.

 

Elephant in the room.

 

Having customers post "Talking on Live Chat now" in order to bump your thread is a blatant abuse of the bump timer. It's also Spam. Until you can argue against those 2 issues, the rest is completely irrelevant, since this practice is against existing forum rules as it is. Staff just needed to decide how to appropriately deal with the abuse, which we have now agreed upon.

While I do agree that customer poaching is childish, unprofessional, and amateur, Sythe has deemed that it does not go against the rules of the site. I believe that the majority of customers are repelled by the practice and respond accordingly. However, it does create a negative atmosphere on the site which is very unfortunate. Up until a few months ago, this practice was rarely used, despite it not being against the rules. Right now there is a lack of mutual respect among certain large sellers which has created the toxic environment we are seeing today.

 

R2p can u clarify exactly which forum sections the rule applies to? Middleman forums too? The form I ask my customers to post include info like skype name, which would have to be pmed otherwise which cluster my inbox and not as organised as for it to be posted on the relevant thread instead.

 

Absolutely does not apply to Middleman forums. Those forms are needed for the MM process.

 

lol but whats the difference with that and them pming it to us?


Both accomplish the same feats, as opposed to us just "getting around" the bump rule.