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When I work for something and earn it, it is mine. It is not yours unless I freely wish to give it to you.

The way I see it is the government was put there to protect the people and to serve the people, not slap the people every chance it gets. What is mine is the governments and what is the governments is the governments is garbage.

If I work I reap the reward, not whoever the hell thinks they should get some.

^this


The U.S. is turning into the nanny state (socialism), do nothing and by all means the government will save your ass. Which is complete garbage.
No, it's turning into a real (as opposed to a theoretical) socialist state. The difference is that in reality the free goodies the gov't are supposed to give you don't exist, and never did, and never can (due to the mathematical impossibility of "efficient central planning".)

Real socialism can be (and is often) characterized by the maxim "those who do not toil shall not eat"; because the socialists classify business-people as being non-workers. The meaning of this maxim in this context differs from the meaning one would normally attribute to it; Whereas normally it would be a statement about working to render nourishment from the harsh mistress which is reality, in the case of socialism it is a literal statement of slavery; Literally a dictate:
"Those who do not toil shall not eat [by decree, and by force of violence.]"

I personally wouldn't last very long in a socialist environment because I wouldn't give up what was mine.
Respect.
 
@Xx FireZ
Not to interrupt this conversation but I think Socialism would be atrocious.


When I work for something and earn it, it is mine. It is not yours unless I freely wish to give it to you.


The way I see it is the government was put there to protect the people and to serve the people, not slap the people every chance it gets. What is mine is the governments and what is the governments is the governments is garbage.

If I work I reap the reward, not whoever the hell thinks they should get some.

The U.S. is turning into the nanny state (socialism), do nothing and by all means the government will save your ass. Which is complete garbage.

Redistribution of wealth is the worst idea ever. People who support this are trying to live out in a fantasy land of sunshine and loli-pops that doesn't exist. Life has winners and losers no matter what. Also competition only drives us to be better.

I realize some government assistance is needed upon this earth, but there has to come a point when it is time to draw the line.


I personally wouldn't last very long in a socialist environment because I wouldn't give up what was mine.

Please read the Communist Manifesto and re-evaluate your definition of socialism. It is not simply extreme welfare for all.

And btw,
How are you lasting in this capitalist economy?

@Sythe
"No, it's turning into a real (as opposed to a theoretical) socialist state. The difference is that in reality the free goodies the gov't are supposed to give you don't exist, and never did, and never can (due to the mathematical impossibility of "efficient central planning".)

Real socialism can be (and is often) characterized by the maxim "those who do not toil shall not eat"; because the socialists classify business-people as being non-workers. The meaning of this maxim in this context differs from the meaning one would normally attribute to it; Whereas normally it would be a statement about working to render nourishment from the harsh mistress which is reality, in the case of socialism it is a literal statement of slavery; Literally a dictate:
"Those who do not toil shall not eat [by decree, and by force of violence.]"

So your saying that corporate fascism is not slavery? And no, you keep referring to different elements of Communism, I do not support Communism.

And how is America's bailout socialist? It's Keynesian Economics.

Sorry for the late response, been busy.
 
And how is America's bailout socialist? It's Keynesian Economics.

mind blown

By the way, America's economy is not even remotely capitalist. Just because it isn't completely controlled (yet) does not mean that it is indeed capitalist.
 
@Sythe I'm 14 years old actually.

I missed your other comment as it was the last of the page.

1. Did you invent this definiton of slavery? The only real slavery that I see is North Korea who is not even Communist but JUCHE!

2. You do know what the difference between mild Socliasm and Mixed economy is, right? Well, I believe that all entities should be allowed, but the government owns the large majority.

3. No, again you are going to the extremes. Look at Europe, and South America. That is not what is happening. Only in third world countries will such occur and a resident of third world country sees

4. Cuba is not Socialist, they are communist. And for a country who's only export is Tobacco which is very expensive and sells in low quantities, a country with a US embargo imposed on it and a country with few trade partners, I think they are doing pretty well. They were not well off to begin with. North Korea? LOL? They are Juche Communist Extremists with a mentally unstable leader, not Socialists. Venezuela? Country with leader Hugo Chavez, who the main world power, the United States despises? And people defect from every country in the world, especially countries like the US who's capitalism caused them to lose their house. Do you know how easy it is to get a Chinese emigration permit? They are issuing student visas to everybody half stable. Talking about Iran? I don't discuss the Middle-East because their actions are influenced by something far greater and more powerful than one could imagine. Religion. Burma? LOL, again Muslim country.

5. Europe with the exception of Greece, Italy, Ireland?, and the UK, Some South American countries, China, Australia? (Not sure about this one but all I know about this one are the Universities), Canada, Parts of Africa are all examples of socialist countries not under slavery.
 
@B0b3rt
It's at all controlled? LOL? What about the 1000 point dive? Ha, pfft, hell the water in America is not even Socialist, you buy it. The school system is? Nope. There is honors, regular and retarded. And colleges? So how is America not capitalist?
 
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1. Did you invent this definiton of slavery? The only real slavery that I see is North Korea who is not even Communist but JUCHE!

What aspects of north korea are not communist?
Do you know or are you just playing more word games?

2. You do know what the difference between mild Socliasm and Mixed economy is, right? Well, I believe that all entities should be allowed, but the government owns the large majority.
You don't but I do. Fabian socialism is the creeping mixed economy, whereas plain clothes socialism is the nationalization of major industry via explicit dictates. That is the only real difference.

4. Cuba is not Socialist, they are communist.
Oh please. Communism is a subset of socialism, especially as it is practiced today.


If you want to argue then come here and strictly define your terms. Then I will nail you to them for all to see; For socialism only exists in so far as its sophistry clouds its real definition; And you probably already know this, but are too corrupt in your young mind to admit it; But this is ok, you've not yet had a chance to escape the brainwashing of public education... so I will give you a respite from the sort of moral condemnation you would otherwise deserve.
 
1. Okay, they are communist because they believe in Juche. But I do not support communism anyways. Yes, they are failing but just look at the leader. He has 100 Rolls-Royces, a 20,000 title private movie collection, and hunded or even thousands of mistresses.

The description I wrote was:
"Give your feelings about socialism and i will support/debate your opinion."

2. I support allowing all entities but the government owns the majority of GDP. That is not mixed economy.
"Fabian socialism is the creeping mixed economy,..."
No, Social democracy is evolutionary reformist socialism which is Fabian but that movement is mostly based on non-violent protesting in my opinion.

3.--

4. So is anarchism?

Which terms would you like me to define? And no, I am a current product of the American education system which is a total joke.
 
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Firstly let me point out that you use of numbering is meaningless if you are using numbering in replies that does not exist in the thing to which you are replying. Use the quote tags as I do, instead.

1. Okay, they are communist because they believe in Juche. But I do not support communism anyways. Yes, they are failing but just look at the leader. He has 100 Rolls-Royces, a 20,000 title private movie collection, and hunded or even thousands of mistresses.

As I understand it, the strict definition of communism at least in practical terms, and before the alleged "withering away of the state" is "state ownership of the means of production, with a dictator." That seems very much to be what you have in north korea. How many chocolate bars the dictator gets to eat I think is very much beside the point.

The description I wrote was:
"Give your feelings about socialism and i will support/debate your opinion."
Is it that you don't know what it is you promote then? If you cannot tell us in plain english what socialism is then why do you think it is reasonable that we even respond to you. You damn sophist.

"Fabian socialism is the creeping mixed economy,..."
No, Social democracy is evolutionary reformist socialism which is Fabian but that movement is mostly based on non-violent protesting in my opinion.
So, what you mean to say is 'yes'.


Which terms would you like me to define? And no, I am a current product of the American education system which is a total joke.
Define the following terms:
Communism
Anarchism
Socialism
Marxism
Juche
Soviet
Leninism
Stalinism
And, whatever the fuck you claim you are.

Also:
Country
Society
"The people"
Capitalism
"The government"
Governance.

Then we might get somewhere in this dreary mess of a contradiction you call a position.
 
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@Xx FireZ



And btw,
How are you lasting in this capitalist economy?

.

Personally. Well I am still alive. 22 + years and counting. Financially, gets better everyday.


Nobody has tried to take my stuff either, except for that % of my paycheck....
 
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Personally. Well I am still alive. 22 + years and counting. Financially, gets better everyday.


Nobody has tried to take my stuff either, except for that % of my paycheck....

It was a trick question. The answer is: what capitalist economy?
 
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Well I missed that.

I say America. Adding its not perfect capitalism by any means. Also won't object to the fact it is twisted capitalism.
 
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Well I missed that.

I say America. Adding its not perfect capitalism by any means. Also won't object to the fact it is twisted capitalism.

Look up the 10 planks of communism. You'll find it a lot closer to communism than capitalism.

Edit: Here they are right out of the communism manifesto
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
 
Quote:
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. Eminent Domain
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. Yes
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. Higher then income tax, hilariously enough
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. Even worse with RICO
5. Centralisation of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. Federal Reserve
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. Almost... FCC and driving regulations
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. GM "bailout"
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Not so much, honestly
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. Not yet
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c. Free, yeah?

*shudders*
 
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Sythe, I will not/cannot argue with that.
 
@Sythe
No, it is capitalism, not syndicalism.
Define the following terms:
Communism: Extreme Socialism that employs politics over economics.
Anarchism: Stateless society.
Socialism: This is the phase that Marx refers to as an intermediate step between Capitalism and Communism.
Marxism: Self-Explanatory. Basis of everything.
Juche: Religion of self-reliance, independence, and self-defense last practiced in the shithole known as North Korea by the mentally unstable leader Kim Jong-il.
Soviet(Union?): Totalitarian state located in present day Europe and Asia that existed from 1920s to 1991.
Leninism: Read What is to be Done?.
Stalinism: Theory evolved from Leninism used by a man who changed a third-world country into a world power in one generation albeit with extreme violence and aggresion.
And, whatever the fuck you claim you are.: Mix of Ordoliberalism and planned economy is how I best describe it. Government regulation, all entities allowed, government owns large enterprises and majority of GDP.
 
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@Sythe
No, it is capitalism, not syndicalism.

You know not what capitalism is. As evidenced below.

Communism: Extreme Socialism that employs politics over economics.
All politcial theories employ politics over economics. Socialism is state ownership of the means of production. Socialism is the complete obliteration of the social sphere of interaction, and its replacement with government regulation on every facet of your life.

Socialism: This is the phase that Marx refers to as an intermediate step between Capitalism and Communism.
This is not a definition. If you were to treat that as your definition then I would simply say to you that Karl Marx incorrectly defined capitalism (as he did all things, because of the fallacy of polylogism which sits at the premise of every one of his arguments) therefore you have no definition of Socialism. Which is quite ironic, your being a socialist and all.

Marxism: Self-Explanatory. Basis of everything.
This is not a definition.

Juche: Religion of self-reliance, independence, and self-defense last practiced in the shithole known as North Korea by the mentally unstable leader Kim Jong-il.
This is not a definition. If your definition is to be "the religion of north korea", and your argument is "north korea does not practice communism because they practice Juche", then this is circular reasoning. For all intents and purposes you may have in using the term, this is not an adequate definition.

Leninism: Read What is to be Done?.
This is not a definition.

Stalinism: Theory evolved from Leninism used by a man who changed a third-world country into a world power in one generation albeit with extreme violence and aggresion.
This is not a definition. I'm not asking for your opinion on what something did or did not lead to. I just want a Plain-English definition, from your own mouth as to what each of these things are.
And, whatever the fuck you claim you are.: Mix of Ordoliberalism and planned economy is how I best describe it. Government regulation, all entities allowed, government owns large enterprises and majority of GDP.
So, "slavery", in a word. If it owns a large portion of GDP then it owns me. For it does not produce GDP, only individuals produce products which contribute to the aggregate (GDP). I am one such individual. Therefore government ownership of GDP is government ownership of me.

You promote slavery and have ill-formed definitions. Exactly what I stated in the beginning of this thread.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.


(You also missed the second set of terms.)
 
@Sythe You asked for my definition. That is how i perceive it and it is not up to you to determine the bounds of my definition.

Now let me get to your topic.

"Communism is an ideology that claims every man on the planet owns every item of value on the planet in joint ownership"

Interesting you attack property ownership right off, Shows you are presupposed that ownership is a value. Taking the case to extremis does not do well for your argument. You will still own a tooth brush and your clothes and a cell phone. Ownership does not mean the same in communism and you idea of owning people is a strong argument agianst the current wage slavery in Capitalism. The main difference you may be able to understand is that in our current system 1% own the 99% of the rest of us. The Marxist idea of communal ownership would eleminate that ownership of us that currently exists. So do not dwell too much on the idea unless you can see the intricate problems of Capitalist ownership of the masses.

"...This is fallacious because public assets must be controlled, and therefore owned, by a small group of people."

This is interesting in that you agian are suggesting that the ownership is by the State. This is why Soviet Russia was not communist. You are discussing top down ownership, and it the state owns it then it is stil a Captialist system, only owned by someone else, in this case as you say, the few in the leadership. This is why bottom up management, and the local communities must be the starting point, because once you attempt to make Socialism into Captialism it fails. It is not a social system to fix Captialist failings but a system to stand on its own vice Captialism. You supposed these things must be controlled by a dictator type responce. Socialism is true Democracy where it is managemd from the People. Being a believer in the Republic is clouding your ability to view what a socialist democracy means.

"In a free society man is free to own his assets, work has hard as he pleases, employ whoever he pleases at whatever price they will accept. A man is free to buy property and build industrial facilities thereon. He is free to grow his business. All of these activities create wealth."

Wow, is this flawed. So many levels of falsehoods. Lets go slow; an asset is something that makes you money. Working hard does not equate with wealth, working hard means you can barely support your self or family and each year you find you have less. The using of other people for the labor at the lowest wage means you are in an unethical act of consumption of another. The exess that you can pry from the pay and the product your workers produce for you is your profit. You are using the hard labor of others to give yourself a false elevated level of exsistance. Your worker will never have the same oppurtunities to do as you say. You do not give him the education or possibilities of being much more then his parents were. If there was an equal oppurtunity for everyone, then I will conceed this, but as it is now, and has been it is impossible to rise much further then your birth, dispite all the propaganda telling us other wise. Creating wealth is the difference between what you are able to subjegate your work force down to, and you collect from their labors. This is what Socialism is discussing. When the CEO is making 1700times the salary of his workers, and they are barely surviving, then this is not a value, it is a sin. This is not a positive thing to exploit others labor and lives to enrich another simply because you can.

"This is where wealth comes from. It comes from the innovative middle class. The capitalist and his fresh ideas, his understanding of markets and economics, and his freedom to pursue his own goals."

This presupposes that under a socialist system all innovation would end. Do people die? Why would people stop being innovative and creative? If anything if all the members in a socialist buisness had a democratic vote and input into the organization as it would be, then the idea pool would be alot larger then the little pool of motivated "Middle Class" as you call it. This also presupposes the end of competition that a socialist enterprise would still have to in fact react too. You seam to be trailing off here as to what a market place would look like under socialism. Cooperatives, worker owned enterprises, would still have to compete and market what they produce or they would not be sustainable, as with your glorified Captialist enterprise. You can still pursue your own goals, only now you will be benefiting your community not just yourself.

"They have no economic interest in industrial projects. Their job is to sit in a room and put marks on paper"

This is just plain false.

"It gets its wealth through taxation, stealing it from the people. The people have no wealth because they have been forced to stop creating wealth by their enslavement."

This is just plain silly. This has nothing to do with Socialism or communism as you are trying to seperate them here. You are suggesting a Captialist state with no taxation? Where is that? Why would a Communsit or Socialist State need to tax like this? If the communities are self sufficent then there is no need for this top down taxation as you say. You agian are confusing a Captialist Welfare state with Communism and Socialism. Its hard to answer this one when you are so far off base.

"...how anyone could see the process of wealth creation as being evil I'll never know."

That is easy because it is evil. The exploitation of the majority by a minority for the sake of this value you call "wealth Creation" is a perverse sickness. You have placed a value on robbing people of the value thier labor produces for your own excessive lifestyle is a moral and ethical deprivaty. It would be hard to make your sickness well.

"...because of their ignorance they end up actually hurting the underclass,..."

I like this presupposing there would be an underclass in socialism...

"...If I want to employ people to do a job, then I want the reserve the right to stop paying them if they fail to do the job for which they were employed."

Ahh a slave owner would of said the exact same thing. Only they would sell them or just kill them, either way they are treating them like property, only you have the option of throwing them to the faceless unemployed labor pool, that allows to to feel you can treat anyone anyway you wish. You can find someone else. Where is your incentive to treat those that produce your wealth in an ethical manner? Because G-d ordained you with this right of worker ownership by divine decree, so however I wish to treat them is my divine right? Wow, how mediveal.

"For business it is much worse. You can only build certain things in certain places. You can't mine land you own unless you have a permit. You can't broadcast radio unless you buy an hideously expensive license from the government."

First this supposes that any regulation is Socialism. Wow what fantasy world you live in. The regulations are on the books to defend us from you. You already established you have no morals and can not be trusted to do the right thing, so now I am supposed to trust your lordship to not pollute me, build substandard houses and products, or not poisin my foods. I am sorry, first that is not a socialist thing to defend me from you, and second it is a nessicity in Captialism because you have 300 years of the worst track record in doing the right thing, so no you can not be trusted and thank G-d there is a Pro-Capitalist Govenrment that is willing to regulate you.

"The answer is simple. When the industry was first socialized the government took professionals out of the free market to work in the socialized environment. In the case of health this would have been private doctors, in the case of schooling, private school teachers, and so on. So for a while the socialized industry is really very good because these professionals have developed their service skills in the free market and are used to losing customers if they are rude or make misjudgments, or are unable to fulfill their requirements."

You are talking about a welfare state not socialist or communist, so stay focused on the subject and not wander off to Capitalist welfare states. That is a different web site.

"Libertarianism and Anarcho-Capitalism"

Now you are just plain scary. I do not trust you to pay me a wage I can live on, I can not trust you not to fire me on a whim, pollute me, poisen me, deprive me of medicine and basic human rights, but I am going to let you do what ever you want? The dark ages ended and you want us to return to them? Why do you not just bring back the German ovens so we can weed down your masses of burden currently depriving you of your right to exploit.
 
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@ Farmer

Socialism, economically, is very close to a pyramid scam. The bottom/middle % make all the products/GDP and "generate" all the $, while the "Top" % reap all the benefits.

I base myself off the following principle - If I earn it, it is mine. If you earn it, it is yours. Want to swap/share, as long as both parties agree then that is fine. But have respect and don't try to take my shit.


Socialism says I work for others, I think not, I work for myself and who/what I believe in.
 
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