This is 1984 by George Orwell. The world is different now, and the government isn't benefiting from the peoples fear. There is no need for the government to instill fear in it's people. Sure they can be held less liable, but the government could get away with it regardless. It seems somewhat unconstitutional, but there are multiple view points on it and it seems to be working. We haven't had a serious terrorist attack since 9/11 and people don't realize that Bush has done a great job keeping us safe. I see where your coming from, but that's not a logical basis for the government to be working off of.
U.S terroist attack expected by 2013.
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ivirz
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I do understand where you are coming from, and I have to disagree. The government clearly does benefit from peoples fear, hence the PATRIOT Act. Does it seem coincidence that the act was passed less than 2 months after 9/11, at a time when fear of terrorism was at an all time high? And is it no clear that the US government abusing this fear to take away constitutional rights?
They would not have been able to get away with the PATRIOT Act had it not been for September 11th, thus "the government could get away with it regardless" is untrue. People try to back up that the PATRIOT Act works because the US has not been attacked again and it has kept you safe, but safe from what? The government keeps telling you there is something to fear, something you need to be kept safe from, and at the same time they take away your rights and you thank them for it.
This sort of fear mongering has happened for centuries; what we are seeing now is just the evolution of fear propaganda. By keeping people in fear of 'the unknown' or in the case of the US 'the terrorists', you keep them in check. It has been used before, and we are simply seeing it again.
I think you have no clue what your inferring. Your basically saying the US government is lieing to us about terrorism, and are pretending to be our security blanket. Obviously some act was going to be instated to help protect us and some harsh such as the patriot act was useful. It helped disrupt attempts at some terrorist attacks. The government isn't in an advantageous situation just because they take away some of our rights. It doesn't benefit them that the people are scared, whats your basis? So the only reason the act was created was to take away right? That's ludicrous. The government could get away with whatever they want, they don't need an act to bend the rules a little. We are being protected from terrorists haha, we know they exist....the attacked us on 9/11 and previous times with Clinton. If you read Clinton's book you will learn it's not a conspiracy or something faked to give the government power. NOTHING is unknown, it has happened and will happen again if we show weakness and don't attempt to thwart these attempts. I'm sorry sir but you are way off, there is no upside to the fear in these ages. It's not a dictatorship...it's thousands of people that run the government, there's no need for fear. If you can give me a logical reason of why we would want the people to fear an attack possibly I will accept it.
Benwise
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In all honesty, if we are threatened, why dont we just take "Operation Sandbox" into affect? Just nuke the middle east, seriously. If we are expected to be terrorized, and just take it, what is the point of just waiting for it to happen?
We don't know who to attack, that's the serious problem. Unlike when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor, we have no idea who is attacking us. It isn't the countries, it's these rebel groups which are trying to exercise power through fear and force. If we bombed the whole ME we would be killing millions of our allies and such.
ivirz
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No, not quite. I'm saying that your government has used terrorism and the fear of terrorism to its gain power. Quite frankly, the PATRIOT Act = Power. Theres no other way to explain it, and if you don't understand that, then all the explanation in the world is useless.
What? Let me try and make my logic simpler:
Terrorism = people scared
people scared = PATRIOT Act
PATRIOT Act = Power for government
Power = benefit?
Does that make more sense? The government is certainly in an advantageous situation when they have enough power to detain their people without just reason.
Please tell me you don't believe that. Governments have a commitment to abide by their constitution unless a parlimentary act is passed that gives them the power to forgo constitutional rights. (PATRIOT Act? >.<)
Your saying the government could get away with anything. Could they get away with detaining a person for no reason? No, not legally. Hence, the PATRIOT Act. (Sound repetitive yet?)
What evidence do you have that you are being protected? Yes, there are terrorists out there, but why do you think they always going to attack you? Because your government says so? Because a book by a former US president says so?
Im not trying to say that there are not terrorists out to get the US, for your foreign policy in the Middle East has almost assured that. In fact, I actually agree that you're probably better protected under the PATRIOT Act, although at the expense of your constitional rights. I am arguing that fear has given your government more power.
Nothing is unknown? What? Except maybe the location of these terrorists, their intentions, etc etc. That just doesnt make sense.
It's not a dictatorship. (I didn't say that?) But there is too much evidence that fear of terrorism has increased your government's power over it's people.
The logical reason why they would want you to fear an attack is simple, Power. Power to do what they would like with you, whenever they would like to do it. (See above how fear = power?) I doubt you will accept it as you have so dubiously stated, but there it is.
Lol, the Patriot Act isn't the constitution and your making it out to more than it is. I just realized your from Canada so I honestly won't waste my time. The government is multiple organizations, not just one big power hungry unit, which you make it seem like. No one section, person, or area of government can gain to much power. Sure it intrudes into the lives of the Americans, but you can listen to my phone conversation as long as you keep me safe.
ivirz
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Ouch, that really hurts. I'm here to debate, not to throw personal insults. -.-
I do understand how your government works, and you seem to be avoiding the clear truth. The PATRIOT Act gives your government more power. It is that simple. They are not some big power hungry unit, etc, that you claim I am making them out to be. I did not state that, nor try to imply it.
Personally, I feel that the ability to imprison me without evidence is too much power. You may not; that is your choice.
Just to make sure we are not debating for nothing, I'll ask a few questions. If you could answer them without throwing mindless insults, I'd be much obliged.
-Do you feel the PATRIOT Act has given your government more power to control terrorism?
-Do you feel the PATRIOT Act has given your government more power over you?
-Do you feel the PATRIOT Act is fair?
-Do you feel it is acceptable to a government to have the power to imprison any person that they wish?
-How would you feel if your family was imprisoned under the PATRIOT Act, and you could not do anything as it is within your government's power?
I'm really not trying to be rude, and if you feel I am, I apologise. I'm simply trying to gain a deeper understanding of why people would accept acts like the PATRIOT Act; it personally intrigues me.
-Do you feel the PATRIOT Act has given your government more power to control terrorism?
Yes, I feel as if the government has been given a power which is necessary to control terrorism in America.
-Do you feel the PATRIOT Act has given your government more power over you?
It has given more power to the government over myself, but it is power which I am willing to sacrifice to keep myself safe and my loved ones.
-Do you feel the PATRIOT Act is fair?
Yes.
-Do you feel it is acceptable to a government to have the power to imprison any person that they wish?
Yes and no. It's not as harsh as you put it. They have barely imprisoned anyone from it, and if so they had suspicions to do so. If someone comes across as lethal, why not? I place my judgment in the hands of the government. If someone is imprisoned, it's a short period of time to straighten out the truth. Have you heard of anyone being imprisoned from the act?
-How would you feel if your family was imprisoned under the PATRIOT Act, and you could not do anything as it is within your government's power?
It depends upon what basis they were imprisoned. I would of course be angered, but if there was factual evidence that made them sound threatening or highly suspicious I could see where the government was coming from.
Yes, I feel as if the government has been given a power which is necessary to control terrorism in America.
-Do you feel the PATRIOT Act has given your government more power over you?
It has given more power to the government over myself, but it is power which I am willing to sacrifice to keep myself safe and my loved ones.
-Do you feel the PATRIOT Act is fair?
Yes.
-Do you feel it is acceptable to a government to have the power to imprison any person that they wish?
Yes and no. It's not as harsh as you put it. They have barely imprisoned anyone from it, and if so they had suspicions to do so. If someone comes across as lethal, why not? I place my judgment in the hands of the government. If someone is imprisoned, it's a short period of time to straighten out the truth. Have you heard of anyone being imprisoned from the act?
-How would you feel if your family was imprisoned under the PATRIOT Act, and you could not do anything as it is within your government's power?
It depends upon what basis they were imprisoned. I would of course be angered, but if there was factual evidence that made them sound threatening or highly suspicious I could see where the government was coming from.
ivirz
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Under the PATRIOT Act, they do not need factual evidence. They can simply imprison people because they are 'suspected' of relation to terrorism, a very loose term in which evidence is not needed. I'm not saying your government has or will do this, but simply that they have the power to do so, something I don't believe is fair.
Anyways, thanks for answering. I really do see where you are coming from now. Our difference is just the amount which were are willing to trust our own governments. You seem very willing to accept decisions that your government makes and that they will be responsible with the power given to them. There's nothing wrong with that. I personally don't put that much faith in other people, and there's nothing wrong with that either.
Its been great debating; I love it when I can actually find somebody willing to have a fair arguement.
Oh no!
We should all go buy things that we want because we might die soon! Let's all go and spend every penny we have because there's a chance we might lose our precious lives!
hmm....
We should all go buy things that we want because we might die soon! Let's all go and spend every penny we have because there's a chance we might lose our precious lives!
hmm....
By factual evidence I mean recorded conversations of where they found their suspicion. Although they don't need to initially provide evidence, within a few days with nothing to show the person would be released. I would want to see evidence during the court case, which would have to be provided. The Patriot Act allows them to imprison initially but they are still given fair treatment and a fair court hearing.
That's also true. I trust my government to a certain extent, but I also do not instill much trust into others for obvious reasons.
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seriously i agree with guy above, make a new thread in 2013.. they dont have any fucking evidence agaisnt this
MJ
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if one person gets enough people to agree to it, they can produce as much evidence as they need, sure it will all be a lie, but they can do it, and fake the terrorist threat, just to get some weird sexual enjoyment out of it....maybe not sexual, but they may get something out of it
You don't think the government can tell the difference between a bluff and a real threat?
DropKick Murphys
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Are you seriously this naive? The state has everything to gain from peoples fear. People who are bullied into being scared are easier to control.
Wow. The government is specifically supposed to abide by the constitution.
There's two problems with your reasoning.
1) The government did 9/11
2) If by "keeping us safe" you mean he has changed thousands of people into America hating terrorists, then yes, he has done a great job
It absolutely is. The government wants more power. When people are scared, it is easier to gain more power.
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It Will happen, either by someone who isn't from the US or someone in the US.
With the new president its very likely that a white supremacist will try to take his life.
With each day that passes its time for people to plan.
These plans will be held out sometime soon.
With the new president its very likely that a white supremacist will try to take his life.
With each day that passes its time for people to plan.
These plans will be held out sometime soon.
