Heaven/Hell

[Arya]

You are somewhat correct, but in other parts you are quite wrong.

Matter can NOT be destroyed, only changed. Such is stated in the law of conservation of mass.

However, why does this mean anyone has a soul? The emotions and thoughts you have right now are due to chemicals and hormones reacting through your body. They are your body's "instruction set." More to the point, even if there was such an entity as a soul, why does this mean it goes anywhere after its physical medium has been taken away?

---

Personally I hate the idea of either place. I have stated before that an eternity in any place is far too much for the capacity of any mortal creature. Insanity would overwhelm any mortal being within the first thousand years of being in such a state.

Well, if any such place does exist, I'd rather go to hell than heaven. If being born in to this world by a "God" without being given a choice means I will have to live for an eternity, I would be extremely pissed off at the entity which created such things. I do not believe in a God of course, but if he did exist I would thoroughly hate him/her/it.

I see.

Soul^ : The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.

Okay, let me rephrase this. I rephuse to believe that hormones can give dust and blood the ability to think, breathe, and do the many different things that a human does. :]

Besides, that's only what I believe. I mean, I know that their are many points that contradict my personal opinion, but to disprove, I don't believe there are any. It's a fact if we as humans believe something is right, but other than that, there are no facts. Only opinions.

Oi?

I'm pretty sure that if a person were to be sent to heaven, or hell, they wouldn't be mortal. What are they calling them nowadays .. Angels and demons. No were near mortal, I don't believe.

 

[Swan]

I see.

Soul^ : The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.

Okay, let me rephrase this. I rephuse to believe that hormones can give dust and blood the ability to think, breathe, and do the many different things that a human does. :]

So you're saying it biological science is impossible? If that were so then you wouldn't actually be reading these forums, let alone alive.

I'm pretty sure that if a person were to be sent to heaven, or hell, they wouldn't be mortal. What are they calling them nowadays .. Angels and demons. No were near mortal, I don't believe.

What are you now? A mortal. If there was some supernatural mind that controlled your body, that mind would be the same no matter what after death. That being said, such is still beyond capacity of that mind.

 

[Arya]

What are you now? A mortal. If there was some supernatural mind that controlled your body, that mind would be the same no matter what after death. That being said, such is still beyond capacity of that mind.

Did you even read my post.. ?
I said that if a person were to be SENT TO HEAVEN OR HELL, not while they were still, presently human. I mean, you can't really tell me that their features, mind, and anything else would change/stay the same if they were to go to heaven/hell, because you really DON'T know.

So you're saying it biological science is impossible? If that were so then you wouldn't actually be reading these forums, let alone alive.

Ahh, no. I'm saying that it would be impossible, unless some kind of entity or supernatural being were controlling me, hence why I won't fully have right to say that God isn't real.

 

[Swan]

Did you even read my post.. ?
I said that if a person were to be SENT TO HEAVEN OR HELL, not while they were still, presently human. I mean, you can't really tell me that their features, mind, and anything else would change/stay the same if they were to go to heaven/hell, because you really DON'T know.



Ahh, no. I'm saying that it would be impossible, unless some kind of entity or supernatural being were controlling me, hence why I won't fully have right to say that God isn't real.

Wrong and wrong.

A mind is a mind, no matter how you look at it. Going to a certain place has no effect on the way that mind thinks.

It is not impossible to live unless a supernatural entity is controlling you. You are living proof of that. If you were being "controlled", that is in effect being posessed. From what I see, you can make your own movements, correct? The evolutionary theory makes a lot more sense than you realise.

There is no proof of origin, but for all we know, we could have simply evolved from single-celled creatures. If it seems plausable for these single cells to live, why not us? We are just more complex, evolved from millions of years ago. We just happen to be the beings of superior intelligence; we have the ability to think about things other than survival.

There are many theories which you could read up on. The evolutionary theory is one of them. Also, you could possibly learn the definition of radioactive decay, which may help you to understand.

 

[Arya]

Wrong and wrong.

A mind is a mind, no matter how you look at it. Going to a certain place has no effect on the way that mind thinks.

Hmm, okay.
You read what I posted. You just didn't understand it.

How can YOU, a human, just like me, who's never been to heaven OR hell, tell me that if you go to either place, you're mind won't become something different?

That's kind of like me telling you that in a certain city in Maine, at a certain coordinate of that city, their's a piece of paper says, "George Clooney is G0d!!!11!!!2!". Yes, it's exactly like that.

He who does not, knows not. You've never been to heaven, so you couldn't possibly tell me about something that happens their.

It is not impossible to live unless a supernatural entity is controlling you. You are living proof of that. If you were being "controlled", that is in effect being posessed. From what I see, you can make your own movements, correct? The evolutionary theory makes a lot more sense than you realise.

I can see your point of view, because you're Atheist, and while I haven't even spread a bit of my religion over these forums, I can tell that you're speaking out of ignorance. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT THEIR IS NO GOD. You're speaking as though the Evolutionary THEORY is not a theory at all, but fact. You've said exactly my meaning.

If a supernatural entity were controlling me, yes, i'd be possessed. It may go against what is ethical, and it may go against ethics of the Bible, but that is, basically, what controlling is. Then again, you have to realize.. If their were a God, AND I was believed to be controlling everything I do, then maybe I wasn't even controlling myself, but being put on a path that a supernatural entity has coursed me to? Wouldn't it make more sense if it were as; This supernatural being has me typing this, but I don't realize it, because my brain isn't advanced enough.

Isn't that how it is in saying that their is no God and that the universe has always been? Too advanced to understand?

There is no proof of origin, but for all we know, we could have simply evolved from single-celled creatures. If it seems plausable for these single cells to live, why not us? We are just more complex, evolved from millions of years ago. We just happen to be the beings of superior intelligence; we have the ability to think about things other than survival.

There are many theories which you could read up on. The evolutionary theory is one of them. Also, you could possibly learn the definition of radioactive decay, which may help you to understand.

I realize this. Don't get me wrong, I'd have to be stupid to believe that "God" molded me with "his" own hands, but then again, that single-celled organism didn't come from nowhere. It's only a single-cell, which means that it can break down no lower. Since nothing is created, nor destroyed, only changed, something that had to be their to create it. Hence, the theories of God.

God was said to be so powerful, he created himself? Well, pretty much inconceivable, but so is the theory that there is no God, and the universe has always been.

Think about it. ^.^

 

[Swan]

Hmm, okay.
You read what I posted. You just didn't understand it.

How can YOU, a human, just like me, who's never been to heaven OR hell, tell me that if you go to either place, you're mind won't become something different?

If I go to the city, I go to the city and my mind doesn't change. There is no reason why this can't be applied to the places in question.

That's kind of like me telling you that in a certain city in Maine, at a certain coordinate of that city, their's a piece of paper says, "George Clooney is G0d!!!11!!!2!". Yes, it's exactly like that.

He who does not, knows not. You've never been to heaven, so you couldn't possibly tell me about something that happens their. [/B][/COLOR]

Solong as there is no proof, the standpoint is that heaven and hell don't exist.

I can see your point of view, because you're Atheist, and while I haven't even spread a bit of my religion over these forums, I can tell that you're speaking out of ignorance. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT THEIR IS NO GOD. You're speaking as though the Evolutionary THEORY is not a theory at all, but fact. You've said exactly my meaning.

For a definition of theory, look here: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=3333366&postcount=1381

If a supernatural entity were controlling me, yes, i'd be possessed. It may go against what is ethical, and it may go against ethics of the Bible, but that is, basically, what controlling is. Then again, you have to realize.. If their were a God, AND I was believed to be controlling everything I do, then maybe I wasn't even controlling myself, but being put on a path that a supernatural entity has coursed me to? Wouldn't it make more sense if it were as; This supernatural being has me typing this, but I don't realize it, because my brain isn't advanced enough.

Then where is this "freedom of will" you believe in?

Isn't that how it is in saying that their is no God and that the universe has always been? Too advanced to understand?

How is it hard to understand that the universe is absolute?

I realize this. Don't get me wrong, I'd have to be stupid to believe that "God" molded me with "his" own hands, but then again, that single-celled organism didn't come from nowhere. It's only a single-cell, which means that it can break down no lower. Since nothing is created, nor destroyed, only changed, something that had to be their to create it. Hence, the theories of God.

A cell can be broken down in to atoms. Atoms can be broken down in to protons, electrons and neutrons, and those respectively can be broken down in to gluons and quarks. The universe is infinite, meaning even the smallest chance of atoms arranging themselves in the correct order to create life is quite possible. Again, we are living proof of this.

God was said to be so powerful, he created himself? Well, pretty much inconceivable, but so is the theory that there is no God, and the universe has always been.

Think about it. ^.^

It is impossible to create something from nothing - you are correct, it is inconceivable. However, existance is absolute. Nothing can create existance. Existance cannot create existance. Existance has always existed and always will exist, otherwise there is no such thing as existance. Therefore, the universe has always been. What is so inconceivable about that?

 

[porman]

You've made pretty good standpoints, but don't become ignorant to all sides. Have you ever heard of Russell's Teapot?

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot


"Bertrand Russell": If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Because you cannot prove it's existence, does not mean it does not exist. Do not fault others for believer otherwise from you, because you may be wrong, yourself.

I never said that just because something cant be proven means it doesnt exist, im saying things that have no proof or even any reason to believe in should NOT be taken as fact or even considered, until proven otherwise.

There is no reason to believe there is a teapot floating between earth and mars because theres nothing supporting this claim. It is nothing more than a senseless idea, same as god.

 

[dragoon_212]

Thanks guys these are all great responses lol i didnt think id get so many =]

 

[Horror]

I don't mean to bring religion and the past into this, but veiws on this will varie per person. Some religions belive if you were bad in a past life, you will be reborn in a lesser cast. (Hindu). The lesser cast is a torture for that life, so is that hell?

Hell, in Christian beliefs, is a place in which the souls of the unsaved will suffer the consequences of sin. A dark place, where the only contact you will have are the terrible creatures that inflict pain upon you.

The Buddah was in hell throught the religion. The Buddha was in Hell because he had done something wrong, extremely wrong, that caused a lot of suffering to himself and to others. The hell in Buddah is not perminent, you are 'realesed' after a peroid of time.

 

[Arya]

If I go to the city, I go to the city and my mind doesn't change. There is no reason why this can't be applied to the places in question.

There is only reason beyond reason. You're comparing a city to the concept of Heaven or Hell. It's not really a good comparison. Okay, say Heaven were real. Apparently, you're suppose to think no evil and do no evil in heaven[IDK?], but while you were on Earth, you were just the baddest person. Ethically, isn't that what would happen? Be bad on Earth, and if you got sent to Heaven, you were no longer bad?

I mean .. I'm trying not to point out the obvious .. Because I want you to get what I'm saying. Your comparison of a city on Earth .. and Hell .. They're just not working. It would be incontrovertible that once you went to heaven or hell, your state of mind somehow changed.

Solong as there is no proof, the standpoint is that heaven and hell don't exist.

Are not acceptable to be believed as they do exist, you mean. Nonetheless, the burden of proof is weighed upon me, and I, unfortunately, cannot show you proof.

For a definition of theory, look here: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=3333366&postcount=1381

Tisk tisk. Questioning my intelligence? I know what theory means.

Then where is this "freedom of will" you believe in?

You say this as though I am either for or against God. No, I have shown trace of neither. All that I am saying on the "willpower" side of this debate is that it would be a bit more logical to me to believe that their were some kind of supernatural being, which would in turn, give us all answers to the most complexed of questions, that was controlling us, rather than believing that a few particles of dust and blood, mixed with hormones, can create a fully functional, breathing being of almost superior intelligence. [George Bush gets NO credit.]

How is it hard to understand that the universe is absolute?

Understanding and believing are too very different things. I can believe that the universe is absolute. As a matter of fact, I do believe that the universe is absolute. However, in the definition of absolute where where the universe is "Not to be doubted or questioned; positive: absolute proof.", no.

No human, and I mean NO human, can fully grasp the meaning of forever, in any state. I've tried. If you say to yourself, "The universe has always been, and their was no beginning", then you try to think that to one second that the universe has been, then one second before, it is impossible, because their was nothing. COMPLETELY INCONCEIVABLE.

A cell can be broken down in to atoms. Atoms can be broken down in to protons, electrons and neutrons, and those respectively can be broken down in to gluons and quarks. The universe is infinite, meaning even the smallest chance of atoms arranging themselves in the correct order to create life is quite possible. Again, we are living proof of this.

Ahh.. I phail. However ..

When you say that "we are living proof of this", meaning that you totally expel the POSSIBILITY of a supernatural entity, it's speaking out of ignorance. Which means .. That neither will get no were in this debate, lol, only getting our post count up. -.-

Therefore, the universe has always been. What is so inconceivable about that?

My post, above.

 

[Arya]

Sorry, double posted.

 

[Arya]

Sorry, double posted.

 

[porman]

Apparently, you're suppose to think no evil and do no evil in heaven[IDK?], but while you were on Earth, you were just the baddest person. Ethically, isn't that what would happen? Be bad on Earth, and if you got sent to Heaven, you were no longer bad?

Are you saying that when you go to heaven you become a mindless zombie? god takes away everything that made you who you are, and replaced if it this unrealistic machanical way of thinking?

Tisk tisk. Questioning my intelligence? I know what theory means

then you would realise that theory means back up with evidence and proof? so that you know that in NO way is heaven, hell and god a theory?

No human, and I mean NO human, can fully grasp the meaning of forever, in any state. I've tried. If you say to yourself, "The universe has always been, and their was no beginning", then you try to think that to one second that the universe has been, then one second before, it is impossible, because their was nothing. COMPLETELY INCONCEIVABLE.

you cant speak for the whole human race. i can grasp the concept. Time is an ilusion, there so no such thing. If the universe at one stage never existed, then it would have never came to existance. simple as that. something can not be created out of nothing, and the fact that there is something, means that there has always been something. was that so hard to understand?

Ahh.. I phail.

enough said.

When you say that "we are living proof of this", meaning that you totally expel the POSSIBILITY of a supernatural entity, it's speaking out of ignorance. Which means .. That neither will get no were in this debate, lol, only getting our post count up. -.-

stop and listen to yourself, when someone starts using supernatural enities in an arguement to try and explain a concept, it is a true sign of delusion.

 

[xx mdv xx]

Hell is a lot more easier to be sent to than most people think. Its' really easy to fall into pressure to have premarital sex, and that's a MORTAL sin. Lying is a common thing and it's a pretty bad thing.

No, there is no proof of Heaven and Hell because they're in a different universe.

Yes, you deserve to go to Heaven if you've never done anything good or bad, but that's only if you believe in God and follow his commandments.

Purgatory does exist and it's for people that may have committed one mortal sin or a lot of medium sins, you do suffer there to pay for your sins.

 

[jebckr]

Hell is a lot more easier to be sent to than most people think. Its' really easy to fall into pressure to have premarital sex, and that's a MORTAL sin. Lying is a common thing and it's a pretty bad thing.

Through my experiances with Christianity, I was taught that a sin is a sin. Murdering someone and thinking of murdering someone are both equally sinfull in the eyes of God.

No, there is no proof of Heaven and Hell because they're in a different universe.

 

[ghostly middleman]

well i feel so sorry for u guys that dont believe in him because you will be sent to hell.
ever read a bible u nut heads???

well yall will go to hell
you better trust or u will
why would we go to chruch?
to waste our time
of course not its not believe and worship him
yall are something else
BURN IN HELL YOU ALL!

 

[jebckr]

well i feel so sorry for u guys that dont believe in him because you will be sent to hell.
ever read a bible u nut heads???

well yall will go to hell
you better trust or u will
why would we go to chruch?
to waste our time
of course not its not believe and worship him
yall are something else
BURN IN HELL YOU ALL!

Oh, don't feel sorry for us. We are quite content in understanding the way the world works on a level you will never reach. Simple logic disproves your God. Even if there were a god the chances of your god being the correct one are slim to none.

Oh and I have read the bible, from cover to cover. I went to church for 2 years after becoming an athiest just to understand where they are coming from. What I found is that they are scared to try and understand the universe on its simplest level and substitute a simple, safe, and comforting answer.

It is I that feel sorry for your ignorance to this world.

 

[kher0]

I will represent Islam point of view.


~What Physical proof do we have that either of them exist?
Actually , what proofs do u want ?. If u want god shows himself up , Open skys , seeing angels....etc then no. Why ? Cuz the believing will lose it's mean and it won't be believing anymore. But for me Quraan is a proof , Complex in life is proof, The universe goes right is a proof. Some ppl don't think so and here believing will SHOW UP.

~How bad would you really have to be to get sent down to a place to be tortured for the rest of eternity?

In Quraan ( Our Holy Book ) there are many descriptions to the hell.Well , it's enough to say that the easiest punishment there will be wearing a metal shows from hell and it will make ur head blood boil (I hope u get the right picture).Somethings about the hell itself. Well , Its color is black and god put it in 7 seas to make it the fire we know now. If u want to move it , It has 70,000 rope to be pulled of and every rope will need 70,000 angel. Emm, What else ?. Oh if fall on it 2day , u will need 70 years to reach it's bottom. I will need years to keep explaining it but I think I gave a good picture of it and after all it's connected to believing. This is some information from Quraan and Hadeth (What our peophet said).

This was for the hell and of course the heaven will be the opisite . If anyone interested tell me but to conclude : it has"wat no one had ever seen , or anyone ear had ever heared , or any one mind has ever imagined".
More description la8r if u needed it.


~Do you believe in purgatory? (Place you go if you are not in either heaven or hell)
Yes. We have this also in Quraan. This place will be for ppl who have sins equal to their goods (don't really know the right word. the opposite from sin).And ppl there will be between heaven and hell sitting on a mountain and will wait until God judge all humans but at last God will forgive them and they will all join the Heaven.

~Lastly, Do you deserve to go to heaven if you have never done anything bad.... BUT have never done anything that is considered an "Act of kindness".

If u have neva done anything Bad , God will present u in the life. Like u will have good health , children , wife ...etc so when u meet him , u will have nothing. Heaven for ppl who believe in God and listen to their orders which is actually being good and neva do anything bad. So u might see ppl who doesn't believe in God and have really really good life and many ppl believe in God but have really really miserable life.

 

[porman]

Heaven for ppl who believe in God and listen to their orders which is actually being good and neva do anything bad.

orders? sounds like where slaves when you say that. Also, whos calling the orders? god has never told me any orders, god has never spoken his orders to you or to anyone. Also, if i followed everything that god tells you to do in the bible id have to kill homos, kill people that work on sundays, kill millions of people. should i do this? no. because god didnt tell me to, people did. same with your quran, man wrote it, not god. Also if the message was as simple as, "do good and dont do bad" then that would be fine, but why add so much other bullshit?

If god created us, and wanted us to believe in him, why would god give us things like common sense and to be able to rationalise? because by giving us these things its almost impossible to believe in something so stupid.

 

[Swan]

Hell is a lot more easier to be sent to than most people think. Its' really easy to fall into pressure to have premarital sex, and that's a MORTAL sin. Lying is a common thing and it's a pretty bad thing.

No, there is no proof of Heaven and Hell because they're in a different universe.

Yes, you deserve to go to Heaven if you've never done anything good or bad, but that's only if you believe in God and follow his commandments.

Purgatory does exist and it's for people that may have committed one mortal sin or a lot of medium sins, you do suffer there to pay for your sins.

Do you have any proof to back up your claims?