How about we review your fictitious arguments.
It isn't really a "versus" scenario. It's more of a big guy with a big gun and a little kid with a rock. Israel is trampling over Palestine, there isn't some match.
1. The old "poor Gaza is being 'trampled over'!" argument.
-What comes first. The fact that Hamas instigated wars or that Israel retaliates due to their continued coercion since 2006?
Your logic is flawed.
As for the OP:
The nation-state system is an incredibly new political system. It is a few hundred years old, at best. If a group of people are Palestinian, they are a Palestinian nation (a nation is practically a large group of people.)
2. "Oh well the 'nation-state' system is 'new.'"
-You're ignoring the fact that the "Palestinians" claim to be an actual people, having historic ties to the Philistines. The "Palestinians" are not a people. The name is regional, and always has been for over two millennia. You attempting to say "but they ARE a people" simply because of a name, when the truth is exactly the opposite. Attempting to adopt a REGIONAL and foreign name is so historically and currently inaccurately ludicrous it almost doesn't warrant discussion.
Flawed logic again.
As for laws, there is such a thing as indirect institutional discrimination. Laws do not have to be on the books for such things as apartheid to take place. That and there would have been such a law prohibiting Jews and Palestinians to ride on busses together, but the PM recently dropped it.
3. The old "indirect" discriminatory laws, which is nothing but anecdotal. Your argument falls flat on its face when you mention laws that would have been in writing. However, the laws you were alluding to would have only applied to the West Bank, where all residents are subject to IDF military rule. Then again, these "laws" would be by definition discriminatory against the Jews as well.
Flawed logic a third time.
Ottoman Turkish Empire was huge and filled with different nations. Also, don't act as if Israel got that land after WWI. The country didn't "exist" until the UN created it and the land was grabbed in the 3 days war and continually expanded upon (deemed illegal by practically every country, but the U.S. and those whom have been told to vote as the U.S. does.)
4. You apparently don't possess the cerebral capacity to comprehend the fact that a nation couldn't and never did exist within the Empire. All still utilized the Ottoman Lira as their currency as all answered under the administration of Istanbul. Why do you think it is that following the dissolution of the Empire the British were given formal rule over the Levant/Palestine? Why do you think it is that they created a regional currency and banks? Because the regional governing power was dissolved.
I guess these facts are too difficult for you to comprehend.
There is a big difference between referring to Palestinian and people that currently reside in Palestine and referring to all the Arab nations.
Again, you're someone with zero knowledge of demographic ethnicity and nationhood relations. Please tell me the difference between the Arabs in Gaza, Israel the West Bank and Jordan. (all three of which were a product of the British Mandate/1948/1967 wars)
Well, under the exact verbiage existed until recently. I could say the same about many modern states. Germans didn't actually exist, they have no claim to the land (they were Prussian/germanic tribes that were united into modern day Germany.)
Still never addressed how/why you would ever apply a regional name to a literal peoples. (never once in the history of this Earth has there been a reference to a "Palestinian" people, but it's cute watching you pulling the "oh well uhh that definition is new")
I am not incredibly knowledgeable about the inner workings of the Israel government/customs/all that jazz.
This part is glaringly apparent, yet you still speak as though you've been there and know.
You act as if the two cannot co-exist.
Quote me on this one. I'll debunk the nonsense further down that links with this.
Many would argue there has been (and continues to be) indirect institutional discrimination directed towards African Americans and the President is black. Also, while I may not be aware of exact situations, it is plenty possible there are higher Arab teacher rates in poor neighborhoods (as an example.)
Very few people argue that. You're expecting a Utopian society. News Flash: Racism will always exist. I'm sorry your idealist mind can't cope with that fact.
Acting as if segregation is really all that different because you crossed a fence.
In relation to the Oslo Accords and what the Israeli gov. and PA agreed upon? Yes, yes it is. Again, your idealist ideology doesn't fit in with reality.
Group of people = nation (very basic definition)
Multiple distinct groups of people = multiple nations
Associated directly with my question relating to Arabs in Gaza/Israel/WB/Jordan. Still ignorant of Arab claims that aren't backed historically.
Land was grabbed both in past wars and if we're talking more modern, the current settlements in the West Bank. Building settlements on land that is not yours is taking land.
Again you proved here your ignorance. You obviously don't know what Area A, B and C are. Look into them before posting in this thread.
Oh, and Palestinian people didn't just appear in 1948.
They did actually. Support their cultural distinctiveness.
Israel is not squeaky clean in support for a two-state solution. What was it a few months ago when the PM stated he would never support a two-state solution (he back tracked of course, but he needed support from the far right to win the election.)
Your ignorance on this topic was proven a few posts up on page 4.
The lack of Arab support for the two state solution likely originated from the idea that they were being swindled and the idea that Israel was getting the better end of the deal.
I forgot to ask whether or not you've seen the Negev. Once you see the Negev, look at the partition plan. Ignorance again.
It's great how you think the winning of a contest eradicates discrimination. Damn, there's been a black Miss America? Wow! I bet black people have no problems with discrimination at all!
When you have a government that publicly called for cooperation among Arabs specifically, no, your claim doesn't hold up. This has been proven by the fact non-Jews hold key positions in Israeli society.
Lets address some of my favorite posts of yours that are completely idiotic.
Racism can very possibly be behind a higher incarceration of a different race. For example, in the U.S. black and white people smoke weed at the same rate, yet are 3-11 times more likely to be arrested for it (depending on the state.)
Half-truths. If ignorance is bliss, you've got to be on one hell of a high.
Have you ever looked into black on black crimes? Probably not. I guess it's "discrimination" that the number is utterly staggering. Right?
Murder for example
http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...ll-about-black-black-crime-heather-mac-donald
Enjoy.
but Palestine is no new thing
All these posts and you still can't figure out that its use to reference a people only started in the 20th century.
Quite silly, just like the "war" with Gaza last year where Israel had killed over a thousand civilians with the only thing lost to a rocket was a chicken coop. I believe it ended up with two Israelis dead, and what, 2,500 innocent civilians?
What's funny is your post after this you complained about me "ignoring" this post of yours. What's even more hysterical is that I did address it when I replied to already over. I guess reading isn't your strong suit.
More like deliberately attacked and killed.
Your bias is/was/always has been showing. Factually false btw as was proven in the links I provided for almost lost. (he's still lost)
That is utter bullshit. Israel is a huge threat.
Remember that time you ignored plenty of evidence that doesn't support your statement? Yeah, I remember that time also.
Having representation does not mean that a group of people does not face discrimination or other problems.
More idealistic Utopian garbage.
It was just a link I saw and I shared, it wasn't aimed at you.
I have no idea what you're talking about
This was another one of my favorites. I was pointing out the Hamas brainwashing of children and their children's television shows. You went ahead and found a play of kids portraying an IDF soldier shooting a "Palestinian." lol not realizing it was conducted by a private school in an Arab community. Then you proceed to play dumb like you don't know what i'm talking about.
When all else fails, pretend you don't know what they're talking about. Oh, and pretend like there was no intent behind it either. LOL classic.
And now, here we are.
No, when I make a statement I generally attempt to ensure I do know what I'm talking about.
Try and fail. How many times have you tried now?
In this situation you say: "So in Fantasy Land I suppose this is where this kind of logic would make sense."
Which was in relation to you claiming Israel is a threat/threatening nation that was backed by... uhm... oh, right, nothing. I countered with the fact they went to exorbitant lengths to warn civilians of impending strikes, provided medical aid and allowed any/all inhabitants into their hospitals for treatment, even throughout the conflict allowing through global/domestic aid that totaled in the hundreds-of-thousands of tons of aid through their border crossings, as well as... this.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/02/middleeast/gaza-reconstruction/
Even though I actually despise CNN, I praise them for this interview and bring to light of the facts on the amount of ridiculous international aid that flows through Israel's crossings, which includes building materials.
One is the international community channel and with projects that are being implemented by major donors, like Qatar for example.
And under the mechanism of rehabilitating those houses, above 83,000 people already got their building materials. But those are not the only steps that we are implementing towards Gaza.
Kerem Shalom crossing point is a major crossing that an average of 600 trucks are actually bringing goods into Gaza. The capabilities of this crossing are already adopted to 800 trucks per day and it will be ready to deal with 1,000 trucks per day quite soon.
But I suppose in your world "charity" equates to "threatening."
It is useless to attempt to paint this picture that Israel is some benevolent country that has never committed any wrong doings and such accusations are just that of the "Palestinian Propaganda." It's a total farce and as I stated earlier, there is an astronomical amount of content online that anybody could link to. Video-after-video either condemning either the Israelis or Palestinians.
If i've argued benevolence please quote me.
Here's an interesting question. Do you uphold Hamas, the PA, Hezbollah/Lebanon and Iran to the same standards you impose on Israel? That's the irony behind this and the double-standard, that the level of sheer bias against Israel is applied to Israel alone.
Israel supplies electricity even when the PA is indebted to them $400 Million+
Israel supplies water regardless of the PA's wasteful practices, giving them more water than was even agreed upon
Israel has allowed enough aid through their crossings to feed all of Gaza for who knows how long, and rebuild it who knows how many times over
Israel allows for all citizens regardless of race, religion or sex to vote in their elections
The IDF protects all citizens regardless (the Iron Dome does a splendid job of that, wouldn't you say so?)
Arabic is an official language in Israel
Arabs are not required to serve in the IDF (except for the Druze, as they willingly chose against such an option)
Arabs receive identical treatment in Israeli hospitals
Arabs have political representation in the Knesset
Do you want me to continue?
As far as I know, Israel is the only nation in the region with government doctrine that reads as follows
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpo...tion of establishment of state of israel.aspx
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.
WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
I don't know what you're talking about. Indirect institutional discrimination is a thing that is already a proven concept. You make a post stating "show me the discriminatory laws", I'm simply pointing out there doesn't have to be laws for a institution to have discriminatory practices.
I guess in your idealistic society this statement might be found valid. You should have been giving examples all this time, but instead you decided to simply state it exists without any anecdotal evidence to back it up. The closest you got were buses that would cater to "Palestinian" and Jews in the WB.
- Stated I found replying to many of your points a waste of time on the basis that "you're incredibly - some would say blindly - patriotic towards Israel, you won't acknowledge facts, and believe Israel to be this benevolent country who has done nothing wrong."
- Points I have responded to you have ignored
- My frequency is when I have time & when I see something I feel I should reply to
- I would hardly saying you're burying him due to the fact that ignorance does not correlate to winning an argument
When you can actually read my posts without claiming I ignored yours, please, do actually reply next time. Plenty of times did I post evidences in above posts that directly contradict your stance, it's your own willful ignorance that continues to ignore them.
If i've posted inaccuracies i'll gladly concede to them. So far, the only inaccuracy i've posted is my incorrect identification of a mosque. If you actually knew what you were talking about and had anything to counter me, you'd be posting solid facts, but anecdotal evidence that is backed by literally nothing.
If you're going to defend almost lost (I think he's still lost) you should probably choose to pick a part of my post where I was supposedly incorrect. Then again, i've already argued these points probably a hundred times over and realize what's historically true and what isn't. Kind of like how you claimed Netanyahu doesn't support the two-state solution, yet i've supplied more than enough evidence to refute that.
This is almost too easy.
