Why abstain from meat?

[guthixbeep]

I, myself am somewhere in the middle of the meat/no-meat spectrum. It'd be terrific to get some input from you guys, mainly some arguments against eating meat. I'd prefer if we'd stay as objective as possible here. We don't want any "BUT I THINK"-ers here.

Cheers!

 

[Shredderbeam]

I, myself am somewhere in the middle of the meat/no-meat spectrum. It'd be terrific to get some input from you guys, mainly some arguments against eating meat. I'd prefer if we'd stay as objective as possible here. We don't want any "BUT I THINK"-ers here.

Cheers!

For me, the biggest reason that sticks out is that animals, to a lesser or greater degree, have the capacity to suffer. Generally speaking, raising them on factory farms and killing them causes them to suffer greatly. Being (presumably) compassionate and caring beings, that idea is that we shouldn't cause suffering where we can avoid it. I don't torture dogs or cats, so why would I torture something as intelligent as a pig?

There are other reasons of course:

- It destroys the environment.
- It is incredibly inefficient, resulting in huge wastes of grain and water.
- Pollution from transporting the meat (and methane from cows) is a huge contributor to global warming.
- You can lose a lot of weight very quickly, if you're struggling with weight.
- On average, a vegan diet is healthier than an omnivorous one.
- You'll feel better and have more energy.
- Vegan food is dirt cheap, so you'll possibly save money.

There are other reasons, but these are just the first ones that come to mind.

 

[guthixbeep]

For me, the biggest reason that sticks out is that animals, to a lesser or greater degree, have the capacity to suffer. Generally speaking, raising them on factory farms and killing them causes them to suffer greatly. Being (presumably) compassionate and caring beings, that idea is that we shouldn't cause suffering where we can avoid it. I don't torture dogs or cats, so why would I intelligent as a pig?

There are other reasons of course:

- It destroys the environment.
- It is incredibly inefficient, resulting in huge wastes of grain and water.
- Pollution from transporting the meat (and methane from cows) is a huge contributor to global warming.
- You can lose a lot of weight very quickly, if you're struggling with weight.
- On average, a vegan diet is healthier than an omnivorous one.
- You'll feel better and have more energy.
- Vegan food is dirt cheap, so you'll possibly save money.

There are other reasons, but these are just the first ones that come to mind.

Interesting standpoint! However, I don't think intelligence has a great value when it comes to the slaughter and suffering of animals. Suffering is suffering no matter the intelligence level of the one who suffers.

 

[70i]

Red meat has carcinogens. There's no reason not to eat chicken or turkey.

 

[T V]

In some instances there are religious prohibitions against it; cf. Jainism.

 

[holy cherrys]

Red meat has carcinogens. There's no reason not to eat chicken or turkey.

Red meat gives me the worst fukin bloat, currently regretting my takeaway decision as we speak.

 

[Spyder69]

I was raised vegan (dad is/was a raw foodist/purist type of guy) and later on drew away from that and just became a regular vegetarian. However, growing up I was pretty adamant about not being vegetarian once I was out from under my parent's rule; that never happened simply because of the health implications that go along with eating meat, and to an extent the ethical reasoning.

You can watch this for something a little more in-depth, more than I really have the time to explain at 11 PM, however, ignore the parts about cholesterol, as cholesterol was proven early 2015 as no longer a risk factor for heart disease.

E: Should also probably preface this with saying that McDougall is a bit oldschool, some of the information he'll give may be a bit dated and such (such as him being wrong on cholesterol, but I wouldn't entirely fault him for that since 99% of the medical industry is oblivious to the truth on it anyways, but the health realities and principles are still true).

For those curious as to why I say that about cholesterol

http://www.ajcd.us/files/ajcd0007056.pdf (source material)

McDougall does a great job of providing you reasoning either to severely limit your meat intake, or just cut it out altogether. If your worry is that you'll limit options after eliminating meat, give it a try and actually look for non-meat options for meals. The single question I always get is "well... what do you eat?" and I always give them the simple answer of 'anything that isn't meat.' It's not difficult tbh, some people dive right into the meat alternatives and it puts them off because there are maaaaaaaany many many out there that taste like shit lol (mainly the vegan ones, since vegan diets and people who are vegans, and their companies, are usually a bit more extreme/plain/pure in ingredients).


My sister a year or two decided to go vegan and she struggled with it, but adjusted after finding new things to do for herself.

Lastly, how far you take it and how strictly you actually stick to your diet will determine how well you feel. I've known several people that tried and ended up hating it because they were stuck in their "uhhhhh" phase of not knowing what to do for themselves.

 

[guthixbeep]

I was raised vegan (dad is/was a raw foodist/purist type of guy) and later on drew away from that and just became a regular vegetarian. However, growing up I was pretty adamant about not being vegetarian once I was out from under my parent's rule; that never happened simply because of the health implications that go along with eating meat, and to an extent the ethical reasoning.

You can watch this for something a little more in-depth, more than I really have the time to explain at 11 PM, however, ignore the parts about cholesterol, as cholesterol was proven early 2015 as no longer a risk factor for heart disease.

E: Should also probably preface this with saying that McDougall is a bit oldschool, some of the information he'll give may be a bit dated and such (such as him being wrong on cholesterol, but I wouldn't entirely fault him for that since 99% of the medical industry is oblivious to the truth on it anyways, but the health realities and principles are still true).

For those curious as to why I say that about cholesterol

http://www.ajcd.us/files/ajcd0007056.pdf (source material)

McDougall does a great job of providing you reasoning either to severely limit your meat intake, or just cut it out altogether. If your worry is that you'll limit options after eliminating meat, give it a try and actually look for non-meat options for meals. The single question I always get is "well... what do you eat?" and I always give them the simple answer of 'anything that isn't meat.' It's not difficult tbh, some people dive right into the meat alternatives and it puts them off because there are maaaaaaaany many many out there that taste like shit lol (mainly the vegan ones, since vegan diets and people who are vegans, and their companies, are usually a bit more extreme/plain/pure in ingredients).


My sister a year or two decided to go vegan and she struggled with it, but adjusted after finding new things to do for herself.

Lastly, how far you take it and how strictly you actually stick to your diet will determine how well you feel. I've known several people that tried and ended up hating it because they were stuck in their "uhhhhh" phase of not knowing what to do for themselves.

Thank you for taking your time to make such a well-written post! The videos did not get my attention however; they were way too long and flat out boring.

I just might start a vegan diet next week! Is there anything I should keep in mind?

 

[guthixbeep]

In some instances there are religious prohibitions against it; cf. Jainism.

True, but that's not the main topic here.

 

[T V]

True, but that's not the main topic here.

Then what is the main topic?

 

[guthixbeep]

Then what is the main topic?

I might have formulated myself in a lacking manner. What I meant is that I want to discuss things that is applicable to everyone, not just a specific group of people. And I also categorize religion as "BUT I THINK" since it's just made up contrivance.

 

[T V]

I might have formulated myself in a lacking manner. What I meant is that I want to discuss things that is applyable to everyone,

How does abstention from the consumption of meat apply to everyone?

And I also categorize religion as "BUT I THINK" since it's just made up contrivance.

that's a major "BUT I THINK" statement.

 

[guthixbeep]

How does abstention from the consumption of meat apply to everyone?



that's a major "BUT I THINK" statement.

You missed my point. Abstention from meat is applicable to everyone, since it is a possibility, but that's beside the point.

What I meant was that there aren't a lot of people who are jianists, which that may apple to. I'm talking about everyday people here who are totally unbiased. That's the standpoint I want to use as a base here.

 

[T V]

I'm talking about everyday people here who are totally unbiased. That's the standpoint I want to use as a base here.

Then your standpoint is something that does not exist, for there are no unbiased people.

-----

We take for granted in first world the fact that we can choose whether or not to eat meat.

In early societies, dietary choices were determined by what was available in the environment. Where vegetation was scarce, game hunting became a primary source of nutrition. Similarly, with the development of agriculture, in at least some cases the necessity to hunt declined.

All subsequent dietary practices proceeded from those (and still earlier) circumstances.

-----

Jainism is a very old religion. Yet its vegetarian doctrine is predicated on the notion that all life (no matter how minuscule) is sacred. True, this is practiced only by Jains and so not everyone agrees with it.

There is no "objective" reason to not eat meat. The motivations for doing so (or not) are historically determined, first by the environmental, and then by the cultural facets to which a person or group ascribes.

 

[guthixbeep]

Then your standpoint is something that does not exist, for there are no unbiased people.

-----

We take for granted in first world the fact that we can choose whether or not to eat meat.

In early societies, dietary choices were determined by what was available in the environment. Where vegetation was scarce, game hunting became a primary source of nutrition. Similarly, with the development of agriculture, in at least some cases the necessity to hunt declined.

All subsequent dietary practices proceeded from those (and still earlier) circumstances.

-----

Jainism is a very old religion. Yet its vegetarian doctrine is predicated on the notion that all life (no matter how minuscule) is sacred. True, this is practiced only by Jains and so not everyone agrees with it.

There is no "objective" reason to not eat meat. The motivations for doing so (or not) are historically determined, first by the environmental, and then by the cultural facets to which a person or group ascribes.

What I meant by "unbiased" was people who don't have very strong opinions about the subject, like deeply religious people for instance.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Interesting standpoint! However, I don't think intelligence has a great value when it comes to the slaughter and suffering of animals. Suffering is suffering no matter the intelligence level of the one who suffers.

Intelligence was not the right word to use. I meant more along the lines of "has conscious, subjective experience", which tends to correlate with intelligence, but not always.

 

[guthixbeep]

Intelligence was not the right word to use. I meant more along the lines of "has conscious, subjective experience", which tends to correlate with intelligence, but not always.

Yes! I understood perfectly what you meant. However, I stand tall with my belief that suffering is suffering no matter who or what is the subject of the cruelty. It may be more or less traumatizing for the individual depending on their intelligence but that does not make it any less cruel. It's the same action.

 

[OrangeCounty]

I, myself am somewhere in the middle of the meat/no-meat spectrum. It'd be terrific to get some input from you guys, mainly some arguments against eating meat. I'd prefer if we'd stay as objective as possible here. We don't want any "BUT I THINK"-ers here.

Cheers!

I've never understood this either, I understand cutting back from excessive amounts of red meat or meat in general. Homo sapiens are supposed to have meet in their diets not sure why people are trying to outsmart evolution when it comes to diet

 

[Shredderbeam]

I've never understood this either, I understand cutting back from excessive amounts of red meat or meat in general. Homo sapiens are supposed to have meet in their diets not sure why people are trying to outsmart evolution when it comes to diet

What do you mean, "supposed to have meat"? Humans can survive on a 100% meat diet, 100% plant diet, or anything in between:

Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets. - PubMed - NCBI

Personally am the guy who says that me not eating meat isn't going to make a difference in how much the companies produce. So there's no reason for me not to eat it. Yeah if everyone has that attitude it matters, but it doesn't matter, me eating meat or not doesn't affect anything.

That's not true, consumables are produced based on consumer demand. You literally vote with your wallet.

As far as health, I've lived in a community that is almost 100% vegan and most of the people there were frail and you could tell they didn't have strength like meat eaters. If you are very diligent and work hard, a vegan/vegetarian diet can keep up with a diet that includes meat, but it's not worth the work in my opinion.

I've lived in a community that's almost 100% vegan too, and my experience was completely different. Generally, the vegans were healthier, in better shape, and more energetic. It sounds like you lived among people who ate a lot of junk food, since eating a proper vegan diet is ridiculously easy - just eat vegetables once in a while, maybe take a B-complex if you really need to.

 

[Shredderbeam]

You missed the point. Me buying meat makes zero difference how much they produce. If I convinced 100 people not to buy meat it might make a difference. They are going to produce just as much meat whether I personally buy it or not.

I didn't miss the point. Say for example that chickens are produced in groups of 1000. If you skip eating a chicken one week, you have a 1/1000 chance of affecting chicken production rates - but if you do, you save 1000 chicken lives. The odds and the lives saved break even.