Trumps proposal for Temp Muslim Ban

There is a difference between law and religion in Islam. Islam is religion, Sharia is law, Sharia is not religion, Islam is not law.

You're arguing Islam, the religion, is also law, which would be false otherwise there wouldn't be subdivisions regarded as law.

 

The commands of Muhammad are absolute since he supposedly spoke for god. Saying X is law Y is Sharia doesn't matter.

No. My argument is that people who say they have been commanded by god to enslave me should be treated as such a threat.

 

By your definition, that wouldn't be considered law.

What? You're going off topic and contradicting yourself.

 

This is the topic. Banning Muslims from the US. You literally spent almost 100 posts arguing over definitions of law, when my argument doesn't depend on your definition. Here is my argument:

My argument is that people who say they have been commanded by god to enslave me should be treated as such a threat.

 

This was your argument for nearly half of the thread.

1. You contradicted yourself by saying you weren't arguing such.

2. You contradicted yourself by saying it's law regardless of what law actually is, but gave your own definition nonetheless, in which contradicts your argument.

3. You argued it's law because it has must nots, and I've refuted that being as your own definition says it needs to be within the confines of interpersonal communication.

 

Address the claim. I'm not letting you waste my time by humoring your dictionary.

My argument is that people who say they have been commanded by god to enslave me should be treated as such a threat.

 

How many times do you want me to address it? Stop with the argument by repetition. Read closely, BY YOUR DEFINITION, ISLAM IS NOT LAW. I've expanded on this numerous times.

Go look back and tell me where I ever argued this with you? I never have.

This was your argument:

 

Then I don't have a disagreement with you. You wasted my time arguing over 100 posts adamant that Islamic law is different than Islam.

Like anyone gives a flying fuck.

Ban people who believe in Islam from the United States. I don't care about your dictionary.

 

You've spent more than 5 pages arguing the opposite, so it is a disagreement. Your argument fell through because it contradicted itself. I'm done with you.

 

#1 , I love Donald Trump for standing up, whether it's politically correct or not

* I love the idea in theory, which most ideas are great in theory but when it hits reality what really is going to happen is my issue. ( just like the issue of whether Trump should be elected or not - is he all talk? )
* ISIS is a serious threat, in which the problem needs to be contained before it's too late and I think waiting for something to happen is really lazy and dangerous. - which is basically what is happening currently. Not making the right move, at the right time ( NOW ) just pissing around, is asking for trouble
*

That's HUGE

- but seriously <1/5 supporting ISIS. Do you not see what I see? That is huge potential for destruction. - though it's not all about size, it still contributes to the problem

 

"Yeah, I love him because he's an asshole! He can say shit like immigrants are rapists, mosques need to shut down and muslims need to be in a data base, release a senators' phone number, and make sexist, racist, and xenophobic comments, but he doesn't actually have a policy platform so the only thing I can say is I like him because he's not politically correct."

 

This is a better source.

 

I stopped reading after the 20 percent support isis. That is when I realized what a complete moron you are

 

- Just replying to OP

 

There are a lot more than 300,000,000 radical Muslims.

 

I genuinely hope you're not using a youtuber as your source of information. I watched three minutes, I'm going to go ahead and assume he's on the far-right due to his mannerisms and he reeks of potential confirmation-biasness.

Few notes:

He attempts to lash out on Obama on the basis of "Islam is a peaceful religion", failing to note Bush also made the nearly identical statement. How he approached said statement screams partisanship to me and discredits himself and the rest of the information he provides. If you're going to present data, you need to do it in a manner that is scientific, not fueled by partisanship.

He proceeds to make logical assertions without even attempting to look at an opposing view. I'm paraphrasing, but hmm radical beliefs obviously include things other than terrorism? Why? Because terrorists aren't supported by terrorists (I find this to be absolutely absurd and while there is obviously support from outside the terrorist group itself, the groups themselves perpuate themselves) and because I say so! If you don't agree, you're obviously wrong or disengenerous. Him making a statement does not make it true. I could categorize a variety of americans as radicals, I could look at the far right evalengicals and classify them as radicals. The methodology is moronic. How are you going to lump people in a categorization of radicalism without defining it?

Oh and he also attributes a variety of problems (Ex: FGM/female genital mutiliation) to strictly Islam? Yeah, no.

"All my day is derived from Pew polls." Cool, source the polls and provide them for scrutinty; furthermore polling data isn't some holy grail of data. You cannot simply rely on data analysis for some proposal and this doesn't even account for biases in actual polling methods (ex: age, geographical location, amount of people polled). I assure you I would find more "radical evangelicals" polling 50 people in the bible belt than I would polling 50 random people in New York.

If you're going to attempt to persuade me on this concept that there are hundreds of millions of "radical" muslims, link to me to some actual academic research, not some whiney youtuber.

You're missing three zero's

 

No, I'm using the poll.

That has nothing to do with the evidence. Why are you attacking the host instead of addressing the evidence?

How does the host of the video quoting Obama discredit the poll?

The poll used a statistically significant sample, not 50 people.

Pew research is not the whiny Youtuber. Why are you attacking the host instead of addressing the evidence?

Added them.


Links: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ - footnotes as well.

 

Anyways - for everyone who has read the topic up to this point: Nod, Ghast, SuF, Tmoe, Naeem, and others have completely melted down when faced with the actual fact of the 1.5 billion people who worship and follow the commands of a mass murderer:

Crucify unbelievers:

Raping of slaves:

Violence against people who refuse to worship Muhammad:

Hacking off the heads and fingers of unbelievers:

Allah commands peaceful Muslims to fight:

Ambush and kill the unbelievers wherever you find them:

Fight those who do not follow Islam, until they convert, or submit to slavery:

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Denial.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem.

Denial.

Denial + racism.

 

I think one of the things happening in this thread is the refusal of people to listen to what is being said in their so called 'sacred' text and not really taking it as a good source of being radical. By definition their religion and core ideas are radical and without changing the core fundamentals of the islamic qu'ran text you're essentially breeding and developing people in a religion where their core idea is violent to what they call kaffir (non-islamic people) and oppressive to women. It's fucking ridiculous, and it shouldn't be allowed in any western countries.

 

I'd like to respond to your findings in the Quran one by one, as I believe you're giving people false information about what is being said in the Quran. You are quoting seperate small sentences while not putting it into perspective. Nor have you read the full Sulrah which you quote from and therefore you're misinterpretating a lot of things. I'd like to advice you to read the full Quran or at least the full Sulrah before quoting from it so you'll understand what it means.
I'll go over your quotations one by one and will try my best to explain all of them. Please note I'm not a scription specialist, so I may make a mistake or two, but I believe this is the way the Quran should be read.

Originally Posted by Quran 5:33
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land.

Please read what it says before 5:33; For that cause we decreed for the children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the Earth it shall be as if he killed all mankind.
This proves that Allah didn’t want Muslims to kill innocent people. During the age Mohammed lived it was very normal to issue the death penalty to someone who had committed manslaughter though. In fact, in the USA people can still get the death penalty for manslaughter and I believe Trump doesn’t support stopping the Death penalty. I also believe US soldiers are allowed to kill someone if fired upon when in Afghanistan or Iraq, making your point invalid. In this part of the Quran it is said that the killing of innocent people is prohibited and that the death penalty can only be issued if one wars against the Muslims or commits manslaughter. Trump supports of this idea. It is nowhere said that disbelievers should be killed.
Originally Posted by Quran 4:24
And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess.
Slaves were common during that time and I, as a muslim, believe the Quran has to be put into perspective to today’s age. Mankind develops and so the Quran should be interpretated differently now. If you read a bit on from 4:24 you will see that Allah advices you that when you can not marry a free and believing woman, you should marry a slave. In order to marry these, you need permission from their folk and need to treat them with kindness, as is said in Quran 4:25.

Originally Posted by Quran 2:193
Fight them until there is no [more] disbelief and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah.

Again, I’d like you to read the previous lines. In 2:190 it is said: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. This means that Allah doesn’t approve of aggression and does not allow you to fight, let alone slay anyone who doesn’t do wrong to you. Nor is it said that you should start fighting people who disbelief, but only defend yourself when disbelievers are attacking you, which I don’t think is wrong or weird.

Originally Posted by Quran 48:29
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers
If you read back to 48:26, it becomes clear what Allah means. Allah is talking about disbelievers who practice fanaticism. I believe that every fanatic is wrong, wether they’re from Islam, Christianity or any other religion. Also you should read when and why this Sulrah exists in the first place. Mohammed and the Muslims wanted to visit their holy place, Mecca. Not to fight, but to be there and pray. Upon arriving there, the inhabitants gathered their allies and sent cavalries against them to fight them. They escaped and entered Mecca and the prophet said whatever it takes he didn’t want to fight. This once again proves that Mohammed and the Muslims were not hostile, nor would they deliberately hurt other people.

Originally Posted by Quran 8:12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

Again here, please read back. This sulrah was created as a result of war. The Muslims got attack and wouldn’t be able to win, so Allah send down 1000 angels to save the Muslims. The strike from them every fingertip is a saying. Allah would scare the people who attacked the Muslims and defeat them (strike from them every fingertip). It is not the Muslims who are ordered to chop off fingers from disbelievers, it is Allah who would defeat the disbelievers who attack the Muslims.
Originally Posted by Quran 2:216
"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Here I’d like you to read further. In this sulrah it is not said that every peaceful person should go and kill or behead people. It is being said that when you are attacked you should fight back, even though you may dislike fighting, cause Allah knows it’s better for you to defend yourself than to let people kill you without fighting back.

Originally Posted by Quran 9:5
And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way.

Again, I’d like to invite you to both read back and further. Before 9:5 it is said that you should leave disbelievers with whom you have a peace treaty and whom have not disturbed you or tried to deny you your freedom, alone. If you read further it is said that when a disbeliever asks you for help or protection, you should always give it to them, so they can hear the word of Allah. You should only kill the disbelievers if they attacked you first, out of self protection. It is a Muslims duty to protect and help anyone, whether they are Muslims or not.

Originally Posted by Quran 3:151
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve

Again, please read a bit further than this one sentence. Allah is speaking about disbelievers who are trying to mislead Muslims and get them off of the right path. Allah would never allow Muslims to terrorize disbelievers, except when they do you wrong. And even then, if they apologize or ask for your help or seek refugee with you, you always have to help them and forgive them. Allah is merciful and he teaches the Muslims to be merciful as well.

Originally Posted by Quran 9:29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

This can, just like 9:5, be explained by reading the rest of the Sulrah. In this Sulrah Allah warns of a great war coming to the Muslims and gives instructions on how they can defend themselves. In this Sulrah it is often said that the Muslims should not kill or fight anyone who doesn’t start fighting them. This is even being said right at the beginning of the Sulrah. 9:29 is therefore obviously talking about disbelievers who attack them. Muslims are being instructed to fight them, only if they are being attacked, and immediately stop if the enemy wants to become Muslim.

Thank you for your attention and I hope you have a lovely day.