Potential Pardon System Changes

[Six]

I believe upper lounge voting really does need to stay where it is. The upper staff needs to be able to make a decision for any reason without having to deal with bitching groupies.

Agreed. I'm sure the staff would ask the user if they needed more information. If confusion needed to be cleared it may be beneficial to simply state why it was denied without going in to too much detail.

 

[Syed]

I believe upper lounge voting really does need to stay where it is. The upper staff needs to be able to make a decision for any reason without having to deal with bitching groupies.

if they can't deal with bitching groupies then they shouldn't be staff

 

[Wonderland]

Please tell me who my "friends" are that I'm attempting to change an entire pardon system to bring back? If I supported a pardon for someone, I would make a post that I support that pardon. You're throwing around an accusation with absolutely no basis, originating off a post you read by Yousuckv2. It's annoying and inaccurate.

- Been banned for ages
- Arguably served their time

- Plenty of users are not "kids"
- Site activity as a whole has dropped
- Shrinking does not have to be limited to this moment in time
- I do not see what the site being market first has to do with anything? It's still shrinking

individual scams when 16

that was 5 years ago

is now 21

lets not support it because people are stagnant beings and do not change at all, definitely when it comes to things such as scamming when you're 16

vlad 4 unban

@Red

Are you saying he wasn't the inspiration for this?

- Been banned for ages
- Arguably served their time

Here is a hypothetical scenario for you.

Say I was banned from Sythe since 2009 for scamming and haven't made any contact with the site, nor the victims I scammed for a repayment until now. Do you think I served any time?

- Plenty of users are not "kids"

You're talking to me about baseless information? Can you show me some evidence that plenty of users are not kids? Runescape is an old game. Just looking at the daily birthdays on this site you can clearly see the average user is above 20.

- Site activity as a whole has dropped

If runescape drops in activity, Sythe drops in activity. One relies on the other.

- Shrinking does not have to be limited to this moment in time

As I stated before, Runescape took a big hit a few times which ultimately led to the huge decline in players. Because Sythe relies on the status of Runescape, there will be ups and downs. Obviously this accounts to 2007, 2011, and 2013.

- I do not see what the site being market first has to do with anything? It's still shrinking

Sythe's market has always been exceptionally well considering the ups and downs. Just based off that, one can assume this isn't about the market, but the community outside the market. I doubt you're complaining that market activity is dwindling since you take no active part in it and would benefits you (less competition).

~~~

This is getting us nowhere. I agree that there is an underlying problem with the processing of pardons, but it's not the system, it's those who control it.

 

[SuF]

if they can't deal with bitching groupies then they shouldn't be staff

Do that a few times a week and its hard for anyone to deal with. In addition voting needs to be private so that people feel like they can actually speak their mind.

 

[Superfluous]

Do that a few times a week and its hard for anyone to deal with. In addition voting needs to be private so that people feel like they can actually speak their mind.

Which is half the reason that there's a staff lounge in the first place, no? If sections are voting a pardon through and it gets shot down in the USL, why can't the USL members shoot it down in the first place--along with everyone else--and save everyone the trouble?

nb - I'm totally fine with the USL still taking private votes. I think video's point about +5 = sent to USL and -5 = denied without requiring a 7-day limit was much more important.

 

[tMoon]

I believe upper lounge voting really does need to stay where it is. The upper staff needs to be able to make a decision for any reason without having to deal with bitching groupies.

^^^^
Even if the "groupies" aren't malicious, every decision being questioned would be highly annoying. They're staff, there should be trust within them to make good decisions. Also, the whole being free to speak their mind freely without being harassed by groupies alongside being able to discuss matters that may be "sensitive" per-say.

@Red

Are you saying he wasn't the inspiration for this?

You missed a part:

Please tell me who my "friends" are that I'm attempting to change an entire pardon system to bring back? If I supported a pardon for someone, I would make a post that I support that pardon. You're throwing around an accusation with absolutely no basis, originating off a post you read by Yousuckv2. It's annoying and inaccurate.

I do support his pardon so I stated I supported his pardon. If such changes were to go in effect, his pardon would likely not even be effected due to the sheer time it takes to push suggestions such as this through.

Inspiration sure, I looked at it, went "wow, we could improve" and a suggestion came to be. This is not the first time I have suggested changes to the pardon system, but last time they were in a staff context and you were not apart of this forum.

- Been banned for ages
- Arguably served their time

Here is a hypothetical scenario for you.

Say I was banned from Sythe since 2009 for scamming and haven't made any contact with the site, nor the victims I scammed for a repayment until now. Do you think I served any time?

Well hypothetical scenarios are great, they can encompass anything, including scenarios that may (and likely will not) happen.

Do I think someone actually just drops off of all forum websites upon a scam? No not really, if they were on a forum and are still involved in a game, they're probably still on this forum or one like it.

Yes they served time, whether that time actually effected them is a different story + I would take in account how much was scammed/if the victims are on Sythe/age when it happened/and so forth.

- Plenty of users are not "kids"

You're talking to me about baseless information? Can you show me some evidence that plenty of users are not kids? Runescape is an old game. Just looking at the daily birthdays on this site you can clearly see the average user is above 20.

Confused here. You say

Can you show me some evidence that plenty of users are not kids?

then proceed to go

... you can cleary see the average user is above 20.

Do we have a different idea of what kids are? I would consider a 20 year old an adult.

- Site activity as a whole has dropped

If runescape drops in activity, Sythe drops in activity. One relies on the other.

- Shrinking does not have to be limited to this moment in time

As I stated before, Runescape took a big hit a few times which ultimately led to the huge decline in players. Because Sythe relies on the status of Runescape, there will be ups and downs. Obviously this accounts to 2007, 2011, and 2013.

Runescape is heavily intertwined in Sythe, but there other markets (they may lack as significant of activity, but they are there.)

Sythe can always adapt to new markets. We are not limited to only having Runescape forums.

- I do not see what the site being market first has to do with anything? It's still shrinking

Sythe's market has always been exceptionally well considering the ups and downs. Just based off that, one can assume this isn't about the market, but the community outside the market. I doubt you're complaining that market activity is dwindling since you take no active part in it and would benefits you (less competition).

If it's doing well, great. That is not a reason to not attempt to improve. I'm not really sure how you arrive at such a decision. While I do think the community is lacking, it is about the site as a whole. New users could bring in new gold sellers alongside new community development team members.

You can care for something without having an invested interest in it. An individual does not have to get anything out of helping another person, or in his case making a suggestion in an attempt to improve the forum. I do not face the problem of racial profiling with police, I still care about the problem.

Note: You could argue that improving the forum is something I would get out it, that all actions are inherently selfish, and all that jazz.

This is getting us nowhere. I agree that there is an underlying problem with the processing of pardons, but it's not the system, it's those who control it.

Those who control the system are part of the system + the staff team is doing great.

Which is half the reason that there's a staff lounge in the first place, no? If sections are voting a pardon through and it gets shot down in the USL, why can't the USL members shoot it down in the first place--along with everyone else--and save everyone the trouble?

Think the idea of that would be to save upper staff the trouble of sorting through the initial pardons, just allowing them to focus on the pardons that have been "approved" by sectionals.

 

[Wonderland]

The hypothetical example was very much probable. Do you think these users with 2007-2009 join dates were lurking this long without pardoning? No. They took a long hiatus from the site, which I may add had nothing to do with the disapproval of a pardon, but because of their initial ban. Failure to contact victims for repayment because of an overextended time period, all contribute to the dismissal of some pardons that are identical to this description.

Good job nitpicking the most obvious unintentional error, and in doing so excuse my rebuttal entirely.

Runescape will always be the heart and soul of this website, regardless of how many additions we add to combat that. We must keep that in mind when trying to over achieve the expected. Trying to over achieve is not a bad thing, but when things don't go as planned, we start to point fingers and blame x and x for x outcome.

It's impossible for a versatile market to improve if the user base does not participate in other niches that show potential.

You're arguing that the staff team isn't showing enough leniency in pardons, then make a 180 and applaud them for their effort. Scratches head

I'm on mobile so I can't be troubled to quote to specific arguments. It should be obvious enough to point out though.

 

[Donald Duck]

- Ignore "low level scams"
-- Under (amount here) user is basically guaranteed a pardon

Still stand by: http://www.sythe.org/14638233-post35.html

No matter how unlikely it is that the scammer can contact the victim, letting people return to the community who clearly have made no attempt whatsoever to make amends is poor and speaks for their character. An attempt should always be the bare minimum.

 

[Dunworry]

I think with the amount of staff and the activity that staff is seeing, we do not need to remove the 7 day limit. I am a fan of staff being required to at least post "support" or "no support" on a pardon until it receives the necessary threshold. 7 days is plenty of time for a staff member to read through pardons and vote yes or no.

As for the 5 no to deny it, I'm not too sure. As it stands, only admins can veto a pardon. What about a case where the pardon is 4 yes and 4 no, and the next vote is a no? I don't support that idea.

Finally, I don't think it should be easy on users who have only scammed a small amount. Regardless of the amount that they scammed, they still scammed. If they truly want to come back, they will go through the effort to do so. It shouldn't be made easy on them.

 

[video]

Like Suf pointed out, a vote of "no support" does absolutely nothing for the pardon. I'm not saying it should, but there have been pardons where I've taken a look and decided not to post simply because all I'd be saying is "no support".

I think something we should consider is doing away with the 7-day time limit and have a simple "your pardon is approved at 5 supports and denied at 5 no-supports" This would mean that mods would have to post "no support" instead of just ignoring the pardon and there would be no further complaints about pardons being ignored/denied simply for mod inactivity

I still feel this way

 

[Superman]

I still feel this way

Sounds like a good idea to promote participation, but I personally would have it at 3 or 4 no-supports to deny a pardon instead of 5

 

[Pain]

Edit: Actually you know what, I support pardon teams.

No to ignoring scams.

Ban evasion I'm fine with(I would prefer it to be on a case by case basis though, aka chris kane's evasion no, 1 ban evasion during the 6 month period yes.)
Like make it where up to 1-2 ban evasions wouldn't be considered.



Yes to modscore and elimination of 7 days window.

 

[Bert]

I know so many users that got banned from a long time ago and their pardons keep getting denied and they feel like they shouldnt even bother pardoning, even after they do so many legit trades that 95% sythe users dont even do while theyre on sythe. The Pardoning system is definentley flawed big time...

 

[Pain]

I know so many users that got banned from a long time ago and their pardons keep getting denied and they feel like they shouldnt even bother pardoning, even after they do so many legit trades that 95% sythe users dont even do while theyre on sythe. The Pardoning system is definentley flawed big time...

Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I feel like I have to be careful talking about pardons because anytime I do somebody always gives me the "pardoning is a privilege not a right" or "never going to happen"

I truly believe tearing the pardon system down and rebuilding it is the first step in rebuilding sythe(not that its dead by any means).

 

[ASAPgang]

I know so many users that got banned from a long time ago and their pardons keep getting denied and they feel like they shouldnt even bother pardoning, even after they do so many legit trades that 95% sythe users dont even do while theyre on sythe. The Pardoning system is definentley flawed big time...

I know this isn't a bitch sesh, but it took 2 years for me to be pardoned for a ~$30 scam and multiple ban evasions. The system hosts a lot of bias. If a staff member doesn't like you, this will reflect in their decision.

I made it through to upperstaff every single time and was denied thereafter. Maybe conjoin the two or make the US voting process public so the community can discriminate against certain reasoning.

 

[Pain]

^ I'd support that but firez has torched any form of hidden pardon voting(first stage)/public usl voting.

 

[DRSX]

I support this 110%, I think it is a great idea and some people truly deserve a second chance, one of the better suggestions ive actually seen during my time here on sythe. Good job.

 

[LoLAccounts]

I'm confused as to why regular users are posting their views on this.

Pardons have nothing to do with us, only the staff team. Why is this even being made into a public suggestion? Changes like these should be discussed within the staff team, because that is who it regards.

Who are we to tell the staff what is easier and more fair, and what is not? We don't know the process, we aren't aware of how it is done and what is in between.

As for my views on the subject, I think that whatever you feel is suitable to change, go ahead and do so.