[Pardon] Reduce the time for pardons!

12 months is too long every 6 months is fine no reason to extend it anymore than it is

 

What you don't understand is there is a reason why pardon get denied and people dont change

@Elite Dust you should know that he is a threat to the community and even though he refunded 6k when his pardon got denied he just went back to his old ways

 

if he does than the staff made a wise decision but it is what it is 6 months is long enough it already temps enough people to ban evade

 

I mean they already ban evade with 6 months. Loads of examples in dusts example he already vaded on like 10 accs and pmed me saying he is vading lmao

 

than let it be this topic is kind of irrelevant seeing as it won't change its a core function of sythes appeal system to get forgiveness if you evade and you get caught(you will always get caught) it just extends the punishment by showing you can't follow one simple rule don't make an account it proves and shows you will break other rules

 

I think I took a quick skim through that some time ago. All I remember was it looked messy. If he refunded $6k, good on him. He's used bogla, where I work livechat, a fair bit in the past and I've never had issues with him or his payments. He's also made small talk with me there so my opinion could look biased, but I don't really want to read over that if it's as messy as I remember and put much thought into it. If he was clean for 6 months since his last scam(s), he refunded that much money, and he even refunded payments where the victim had no proof, then I'd have supported it assuming his pardon looked genuine enough. If he just scammed, paid back weeks later and attempted a pardon that's an automatic no from me. I'm not sure if people can still pardon immediately after a scam, but I'll say no to just about any scammer that has not been banned for at least 6 months.

Proving you can and have changed is a long process. If 3 months is just enough to refrain some users from ban evading, unlike with 6 months, then they just believe they can get away and haven't really changed. There's been quite a few people who's ban evaded thinking it's fine and that they wouldn't be caught because 6 months is too long. This just postpones your ban and can make things a lot worse in the end.

Probemas/Axelus is actually a good example of this, and I'm sure some blame me since I work for his competitor and believe I had a hand in swaying the votes. When in reality the feelings were mixed but he didn't serve his ban because he ban evaded, the staff felt like they did not want to set a precedent by encouraging users to ban evade, and once they're successful and caught, that they could get a free pass because clearly they're not a threat. I was one of those who believed 6 months was too long for a petty offense, but the options were pardon or wait 6 months. I felt like pardoning him outright wasn't acceptable since he'd have served no punishment either. In his case, if he came clean on his own I'd probably have supported it immediately, or let him come back in 3 months. With that said, maybe if staff say you can try again in X months would work better. However that case is like a needle in a haystack, and that didn't even happen since he didn't come clean on his own.

tl;dr 3 months is too short but 6 months is fine

 

My suggestion is 3 months. Anyone is able to realise their mistakes in 3 months compared to 6 months. My question still remains unanswered however. Equally explain to me the difference between 4 months and 6 months. Nobody is going to understand their mistakes in a period of an extra 2 months. If nobody realises or understands their mistakes in 2 months then what is the difference of 3 months.

Also I spoke to staff when I was banned. Staff told me pardons "rarely" got denied. They said in the rare circumstance that they do there is a reason for it. If pardons are rarely getting denied then more pardons are going to give you a bigger opportunity to return back into the Sythe community.

As for the part about me scamming and ban evading. I did ban evade on 1 other account which coincidentally I used to catch ban evaders (if you want to check the reports on the account John96) and the scam wasn't performed by me but rather one of my workers. Since I worked with him, I expected him to scam in the first place but yet I still continued to work with him and as a result I got banned and had to pay back all the debts that he retrieved. Equally thats like saying if Bogla Muffy were to scam over 10B RSGP then Bogla would still be held accountable for paying back all the debts that Muffy did in the first place.

Also a question for staff here. You want over 55% of the vote for people to come back into the community and yet the vote says over 60%. That is a 5% difference which is huge here. I don't understand why there are two separate values here. Which is the real one?

If people want to go back to their old ways @SPM322, the veto option is still there. We can still have 2 administrators to veto pardons in can people pretend to change. In the case of elite dice, he can get his pardon vetoed for a long period of time until Sythe feel that he has changed

Finally yes the pardon system can be made longer however making it longer would overall decrease the number of users. This being said there would be less pardons meaning that people who would get banned would most likely pardon immediately after their ban, the pardon would get denied and they'd most likely end up going to a different forum. Nobody would wait a year when they can go to a different forum and not be banned, not to mention certain sites that have an "offsite ban rule" you can just explain to the owner(s) why you got banned and you wouldn't even get banned on those sites. A good example would be PB. If you get banned on Sythe you go to PB and say hey I got banned for scamming X amount and the admins there give you a TWC rank????? So why pardon every 12 months if a Sythe user was to ban evade, scam on a ban evaded account and move to PB where they get a TWC rank. Surely reducing the pardon rule would get PB users to move over to Sythe.

 

Realizing their mistake and showing character reform while serving out a ban for a heinous act (not in all cases) are 2 different things. 3 months is not enough for this. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue, bans and pardons weren't set for the user to realize and understand their mistake. It takes but hours to realize what you did was wrong. It takes longer to show that you have changed as a person, regret the mistake, and the longer you stay clean the more likely the staff would believe you've changed.

That's not how it works. If I was staff and someone committed a serious offense that negatively affected people greatly, it does not matter if they were allowed to pardon once every month. I'll not support it for a while, even if that means saying no 6 times in 6 months. Maybe it rarely gets denied because 6 months is enough time, if it is denied then a year is also pretty long. The average user would rarely get their pardons denied twice.

This has been set in place for a while for a reason. It wasn't always like this. If you wish to put your name with someone and work with them, then yeah you should be held accountable as you are basically telling people that he is my partner and you can trust him. Breaking a rule and helping Sythe get rid of ban evaders is not an excuse to put you above the rules. I'm not aware of your situation, but you're saying you had a worker you expected to scam and you still worked with him? Did you not care enough about your customers?

The veto option is a pretty gray area but it was certainly not made for admins to look at pardons, read through them and decide to veto or not. Admins have specific roles and when I was staff, spam reports and pardons were not part of what they did. However they could should they choose to do it, and some of them occasionally took a peep and spent some time looking around those sections.

 

Isn't the whole reason of Dnt making up for the length of time with the pardon system, I.e you're able to surf the community whilst you wait for the pardon.

So if anything I also disagree, I don't believe the pardon system should be decreased. Although in certain situations like, where you're worker scammed and you didn't perhaps that should be reviewed. Unless you did other shady things you deserved the ban and the 6MONTHS waiting period. If it wasn't you and you refunded the scam, do you still wait 6 months? If so perhaps that should decrease as you didn't directly scam. (If there's no other shady business)

Perhaps pardons should be based on case by case scenario. Some pardons have gone much quicker without a user needing to wait six months, Gun as an example I believe only waited two months for the investigation of his countless scams and evasions were bought to light but did he have to wait 6months with the pardon process? I don't remember.


If I'm making no sense, DNT allows you to be apart of the community whilst needing to pardon, perhaps if good behaviour on DNT within community could equal less time on pardon, perhaps pardons waiting time based on case by case situations?

 

Sorry excuse my dopeyness, failed pardons = six months waiting time. Ok forget what I said above.

If you failed a first pardon I definitely agree you should wait 6 months, if you're unable to pardon first time there's always a reason why and I'd believe staff are capable of doing pardons correctly. You are extremely lucky nowadays to have a DNT in place while you wait until you've been pardoned.

Again though in specific circumstances I assume staff know how to deal with it.

 

Not necessarily. If your pardon fails you are still eligible to request the DNT rank. Then you just have to wait another 6 months to pardon so you can get the DNT rank removed. Its not like when you pardon your instantly unbanned and you have a DNT rank whilst the pardon is being reviewed.

Good behaviour on a DNT rank could lead to a decrease in the amount of time you have to wait in between pardons but could you possibly justify that a bit more? A lot of members with DNT would probably post in the spam section where there is no or barely any rules. So what would good behaviour justify?

I understand the case by case basis part however what I was suggesting with the 3 months pardon time is that surely if it was done on a case-by-case basis, it would take the staff a longer period of time as they would need to do more research into who should be taken lightly and who should be punished severely. If staff members were doing everyone within a 3 month time limit then everyone would be treated fairly and the same amount of effort would be made within each pardon attempt.

 

Basically DNT was brought in as a means to allow banned members to show that they are capable of being apart of the community without trading, just like if you're in prison good behaviour gets time off your sentence. I'm curious as to whether good behaviour whilst being DNT will give some time off when ur going through pardon. I.e. Failed first pardon, request dnt, behave well and excellent member on forums whilst you wait 6 months, if you're capable of showcasing you're worthy of and are a changed person the 6 months could be decreased. I don't know if it's extra effort. Good behaviour would be reporting possible ban evaders, community participation, creating discussion helping new members, suggesting things for the site, helping or volunteering time to create things for the site (not necessarily being on a team), learning the rules, simple participation within community events discussion.

Also the rules differ and give different punishments, therefore why does the pardon system have a fixed time for waiting. I assume staff are capable of weeding out based on reformed individuals and based on the rules being broken. Therefore if you are denied your first pardon it would make sense to wait, again revert back to the first thing with the DNT.

 

So what? Even if the pardon was stated at 3 months people would not be forced to make a pardon every 3 months. They would still be a case where they can pardon later on possibly 4-5 months down the line. 3 months would certainly be enough time for people to realise and understand their mistakes. There may be a method in which people who apply 4-5 months down the line get accepted faster but it's better for people to know that after 3 months they are free to pardon whenever they want rather than leaving and going to a totally different forum.

You say that "if someone impacted the Sythe community greatly" then you'd not support their pardon for a while as if they've done a big bad thing. The only rule that would impact the sythe community in a negative manner in a very great way would be blackhat activity. What other rule would impact Sythe to a negative great extent other than that. Yes other rules could impact Sythe negatively but not as great as Blackhat activity. You might not support the pardon but that is not to say that other staff members won't. In fact quite the contrary because the pardon needs to be analysed and read in detail for the facts before a vote is performed. Not all staff members vote like you. They don't vote negatively because they don't like the person, they vote negatively if the pardon hasn't had any effort put into it.

As for the scam that took place. I expected him to scam because I saw screenshots of him negotiating with the other customers and the other team member when he was talking about them not to tell me. I didn't believe this proof because I didn't think he'd do that but everyone knows that people change and they end up scamming and then you as the owner has to pay purely because it's your worker. I only believed in the proof after he scammed so what else could I have done about it. Nothing, it was too late and I resolved the issue myself by paying out the £50 that was meant to be refunded in the first place meaning in the end the issue was resolved.

When you were a "sectional mod" what were Administrator duties then? Veto's are put in place for a reason and if they are a grey area why aren't they expanded upon or removed. Administrators do handle a lot of reports and I mean since pardons have had an increase in time, effectively if a pardon has not reached a success stage within 7 days it is given another 7 days where all staff are told to vote (INCLUDING ADMINS). This means if it reaches that Admins can still veto the pardon.

 

But also if that is done could we actually put in place a rule where equally if a user is good in DNT mode they can pardon but rather than getting the DNT rank removed they can instead get a temp ban and a TWC. This makes sense because users can get apply for a DNT, get a pardon reduced to 2 months and then appeal and reduce the DNT to a TWC and a temp ban.

There is also a rule where it states that unconditional pardons are not allowed but I feel that this rule is a bit of a grey area because there are still reports where people who are involved in blackhat activity get unconditional pardons and get unbanned with a DNT rank which they have the ability to pardon at a later date.

 

Don't agree with temp ban and twc, that defeats the purpose of showing your reforming also Richard (sythe) wants to avoid bans. I believe a good behaving socially accepted DNT decreasing the time to pardon benefits the community, the person and the staff because they will be helpful. I.e. If positive behaviour reduce waiting time to 5 months etc

 

I do agree however reducing a permanent ban to a temp ban makes it easier because the user is guaranteed to get their account back in a specific number of days/months/years. A DNT being reduced to a temp ban and a TWC means that users will eventually be active again. Not only this but they said that ban evaders would get DNT'd however they are still getting banned on a daily basis.

 

Have you even read anything I wrote? This was literally addressed in the first line and I even said I have no idea what your argument is about since the point of pardons is not to realize their mistakes. I'll say it again so I'll save you the trouble and I'll put it in a new paragraph so it's easier to read.

"bans and pardons weren't set for the user to realize and understand their mistake. It takes but hours to realize what you did was wrong. It takes longer to show that you have changed as a person, regret the mistake, and the longer you stay clean the more likely the staff would believe you've changed." The point of a pardon is not to realize your mistake. You'd have to be an idiot if it takes you months to realize your mistake, that takes seconds after the scam. It's to prove you've changed for the better and that the staff voting deem you fit to be back.

Are you not competent enough to realize what my sentences mean? Going from what I just said before this asking if you even read the first line to this I am starting to think it's pointless trying to explain something to someone who either does not understand or is too stubborn to. My point was # of pardons does not mean a higher chance of getting pardoned, that's a silly way to think of it or use that as your reasoning when you want to compare 3 month pardons to the current 6 months which rarely get denied and assume the outcome of pardons will remain the same. No, I bet more pardons will get denied if it's only 3 months. Then what if it goes back to 6 months? Are you going to argue it gets denied enough at 3 months and doesn't need to be made longer?

I'm done replying because I honestly don't think I can simplify what I mean any further to a point you would understand. This is pointless unfortunately.

 

The point of pardons isn't to allow a large number of people to return so the site can be more active (that's DNT), but to allow those who show a reform of character the opportunity to prove it through their long-term actions to return. If you get denied then the staff don't believe you've sufficiently changed yet.

It's just going to be denied at least twice if it's 3 months between them instead of 6.

 

The whole point is to make the 6 month wait period effect their mental state. Expedition and not wanting to wait an additional 6 months will make them more keen on paying back debts.

No support

 

No there is absolutely no point because if the pardon system is denied when it takes 3 months to pardon each time then there is no chance that a pardon will pass if it takes even less time @Apith. If you can't pass a pardon when it's taking even less time then it's hopeless. Your better off waiting the 3 months then repardoning and you'll most likely get your account back.

Also @Apith, pardons are accepted based on writing. If you admit your mistake and apologise for it then it'll get accepted. Like I said previously people who may choose to pardon after the 3 months may get accepted back into the community quicker but it's good to know that people still have the ability to pardon every 3 months. If your unhappy with my reasoning then go ask all the ban evaders and ask them if they are happy with my idea and I guarantee you the majority of them would say yes. You're also welcome to ask Taurine and no doubt he will also agree with me. Also you can ask people with a DNT rank and I'm sure they too will agree with me.

@TeamTofu
We don't know if the pardon's are going to get denied at least twice. That is an assumption that you have made. We cannot be sure whether or not the pardons get accepted/denied. If this was to be put in trial (something placed there for a limited period of time) only then would we be able to tell if it is going to work out or not. The community cannot determine the outcome of an event unless its already put into place. Look at Runescape for example. People would not have been able to decide whether EOC was a good or a bad thing UNTIL it was put into Runescape

Finally @Gun, may I remind you that the DNT rank still exists. If people have outstanding debts then the DNT rank is still available. May I also remind you that the DNT rank has a 100% success rate meaning if you apply for one you will always get it. If you disagree with the pardon system, I am sure you are also disagreeing with the whole DNT rank yes?