Licensing from a common law perspective.

A license is a written authorization signed by a representative of the state, that authorizes the holder to perform some activity which would otherwise be illegal.

In the case of setting up a private hospital for example, one requires a license to operate a medical facility and a medical business; If one were to operate a medical facility without a license then the police would be called in and threaten to shoot you if you did not shut it down and submit to detention.

From a common law perspective, here's what is occurring here:

Say that I am party A (the hospital) and you are party B (the patient.) We make a legal agreement that I will provide you medical services in exchange for monetary reimbursement. This is a private contract between A and B, under common law and is only binding on parties A and B. Neither party has signed any other contract related to this interaction.

Now here comes party C, the state. C says that A cannot contract with B, unless A first contracts with C. That is, I am unable to offer medical services to you until I have a contract with the state. (A 'license'.)

Where have we seen this pattern before? From where does this originate?

From slavery of course!

Under the law of chattel slavery a legal person (a free man) cannot contract with a slave without the master's consent.

For a very simple example of this, let's take marriage. (Marriage is a contract.) In order for a free-man to marry a slave who is owned by a slave owner, the free-man must first make a contract with the slave owner before he is allowed to make a contract with the slave -- infact before a contract with the slave is even recognized as a legitimate contract. Which is the same as the hospital example above. Namely that A cannot contract with B until A first contracts with C. And if A attempts to contract with B without contracting first with C, then the law will not only not recognize this contract but will actively try to aggress upon / intrude upon the contract between A and B.

But the similarities do not end there; Slaves were persistently told by their masters under systems of chattel slavery that their enslavement was 'for their own good', 'for their own safety', and so on.
And what is the most common excuse for licensing? It's for "the safety of consumers." -- the 'safety' of the slaves.

There you have it. Licensing is an active demonstration of the legal rights of 'citizens'; Namely that they have none, only privileges granted by their owners.

 

[John Kames]

Well said buddy!
"License" can cover many other terms as well,
Did you write this all?

 

[kfjjjdst]

Now here comes party C, the state. C says that A cannot contract with B, unless A first contracts with C. That is, I am unable to offer medical services to you until I have a contract with the state. (A 'license'.)

Well, The thing is, Licensure basicly only exclusively includes such activities, which require high skills or high risk in the given profession, but licensing really depends on the country. In bigger countries you'd probably have to show a more significant proof of your business being stable enough for it to work, while in some countries (poor, small and such), you could be able to run such a profession with a significally smaller amount of proven knowledge.
It also depends on who declares what a dangerous enough "skill" or particular job to declare it risky enough, for it to be licensed, for it to be allowed to run and work.

With the slavery, I do agree infact. It used to be the same even 100-200 years ago. The old father would talk with other parents and decide who the child would marry. This infact can still show small amount of signs of slavery, but in a completely different matter and way, which may be reasoned with the fact: this is where this habit originated from.

 

Licensure basicly only exclusively includes such activities, which require high skills or high risk in the given profession

Total bullshit. In most countries you need a license to do any sort of business. 'A business license'. And you need, in addition to that, a license for the industry you work in; 'food preparation,' for example, if you were operating a chicken stall in a market. And on top of that even, you need a license to employ people to work at your stand -- and they need licenses to work for you -- AND you usually need state enforced insurance for your stand.

 

[kfjjjdst]

Total bullshit. In most countries you need a license to do any sort of business. 'A business license'. And you need, in addition to that, a license for the industry you work in; 'food preparation,' for example, if you were operating a chicken stall in a market. And on top of that even, you need a license to employ people to work at your stand -- and they need licenses to work for you -- AND you usually need state enforced insurance for your stand.

Yes, the food preperating license is required, because chicken with a disease can be exremely dangerous to you, when eaten. This again proves you basicly need those licenses to avoic severe consiquences of a business being done wrong.

 

Yes, the food preperating license is required, because chicken with a disease can be exremely dangerous to you, when eaten. This again proves you basicly need those licenses to avoic severe consiquences of a business being done wrong.

In many states in the US you need a license to be an interior decorator or cut hair. Go on, tell me what's so dangerous about that. Going on the internet is dangerous. Should that be licensed?

Getting back to common law perspective here; what are you invoking tort or contract law? And are you trying to claim a presumption of guilt on the contracting parties?

 

[kfjjjdst]

In many states in the US you need a license to be an interior decorator or cut hair. Go on, tell me what's so dangerous about that. Going on the internet is dangerous. Should that be licensed?

Getting back to common law perspective here; what are you invoking tort or contract law? And are you trying to claim a presumption of guilt on the contracting parties?

I was invoking the tort but I'm not that highly educated in the licensing of other countries, but I do know for the fact where I live you certaubky do not need any kind of a license for such business as hair dresser.

edit: this may sound retarded but you need to have special education to be a hair dresser as well actually, since the hair dyeing can be dangerous to the hair if done wrong and such, I believe.
I think in most jobs a risk of screwing up is there and that may be the reason behind licenses being required, though I'm not sure.

 

I was invoking the tort but I'm not that highly educated in the licensing of other countries, but I do know for the fact where I live you certaubky do not need any kind of a license for such business as hair dresser.

Well a tort still requires evidence of a complaining party, causation, and provable injury and damage. You have none of these things. You can't sue me for opening a chicken stand, unless you bought chicken and were thereafter poisoned. And we already have a body of law for this, so what need have you of licenses?

Would you hold each at gun point, as slave before master, 'just-in-case' of property damage?

edit: this may sound retarded but you need to have special education to be a hair dresser as well actually, since the hair dyeing can be dangerous to the hair if done wrong and such, I believe.
I think in most jobs a risk of screwing up is there and that may be the reason behind licenses being required, though I'm not sure.

Yes that is retarded?

 

[kfjjjdst]

Well a tort still requires evidence of a complaining party, causation, and provable injury and damage. You have none of these things. You can't sue me for opening a chicken stand, unless you bought chicken and were thereafter poisoned. And we already have a body of law for this, so what need have you of licenses?

Well, I see your point but the problem here is, there are probably many cases where it's hard to gather significal evidence of the harm or damage you were caused, therefore these licenses could be some sorf of precaution. Because if you have the chicken stand, I buy your chicken, die, you can always claim it was from another chicken stall, so basicly speaking by me saying that you usually would need this only for a business with risk of harm or damage, I meant, this is often used to verify sources of a sale for example, so they can declare it safe, to buy from.

Would you hold each at gun point, as a slave before a master, 'just-in-case' of property damage?

No, that's what I'd say licenses are for: they are verifying that the source of a business, or the way it is run, is safe.

 

Well, I see your point but the problem here is, there are probably many cases where it's hard to gather significal evidence of the harm or damage you were caused, therefore these licenses could be some sorf of precaution. Because if you have the chicken stand, I buy your chicken, die, you can always claim it was from another chicken stall, so basicly speaking by me saying that you usually would need this only for a business with risk of harm or damage, I meant, this is often used to verify sources of a sale for example, so they can declare it safe, to buy from.

So, because it might be hard to get evidence to carry out justice, you propose to do away with the presumption of innocence?

No, that's what I'd say licenses are for: they are verifying that the source of a business, or the way it is run, is safe.

You mean like all those heavily licensed banks that just went under and lost tens of trillions of ordinary people's dollars? Sounds very safe.

 

[kfjjjdst]

So, because it might be hard to get evidence to carry out justice, you propose to do away with the presumption of innocence?

I wouldn't do away with it but try to be precatious. If there's a smaller source of problems, smaller chance of this happening, thus having a little to no problems with the takeaway of the presumption of innocence of a business.

 

I wouldn't do away with it but try to be precatious. If there's a smaller source of problems, smaller chance of this happening, thus having a little to no problems with the takeaway of the presumption of innocence of a business.

I don't understand. What's your position? Can A freely contract with B or not?

 

[kfjjjdst]

I don't understand. What's your position? Can A freely contract with B or not?

Depending on what the service of party A is but in most cases without the licensure - legally - can't. This really depends on the service of A though.

 

Depending on what the service of party A is but in most cases without the licensure - legally - can't. This really depends on the service of A though.

So your answer is 'no'. Your (moral) position is that all human beings must first obtain permission from a man with a gun before they can agree to exchange goods and services with one another. This is in-fact slavery.

 

[kfjjjdst]

So your answer is 'no'. Your (moral) position is that all human beings must first obtain permission from a man with a gun before they can agree to exchange goods and services with one another. This is in-fact slavery.

Not really, for example if you were to sell shoes in your home and payed tax after it and what not, you would need no license from anyone at all.

 

Not really, for example if you were to sell shoes in your home and payed tax after it and what not, you would need no license from anyone at all.

Well firstly, why is anyone entitled to my money in the form of 'taxes' or any other tribute, if I am not a slave? And secondly I would still require a 'business license' (permission) to be allowed to sell things.

 

[The Riddler_]

Government likes to think they know what's best for the population.

With the food industries, there are a lot of variables. It's different from a private deal, such as the one you first stated.

Though this is true, conservatives run things; it'll take a bit for people to even recognize what they are doing.

 

[FreedomFight]

Liscencing has grown out of it's original purpose, in a way I disagree with.

Some things can't be sued for. Some things can't be replaced if a deal goes bad. In such cases, where a purely free market cannot suffice, it seems reasonable to me that a third party validate the services involved. However, I don't see state-sponsored liscensing as particulary neccessary; it just happens to be a little more convenient given the way things are set up now.

 

Liscencing has grown out of it's original purpose, in a way I disagree with.

Some things can't be sued for. Some things can't be replaced if a deal goes bad. In such cases, where a purely free market cannot suffice, it seems reasonable to me that a third party validate the services involved. However, I don't see state-sponsored liscensing as particulary neccessary; it just happens to be a little more convenient given the way things are set up now.

It's not licensing if the third party agrees to inspect and certify the product or service on a voluntary basis. That is just certification, which is a completely wholesome and good market phenomenon.

Ever notice the (UL) logo on your electronics? That's a market institution certifying products -- voluntarily -- as safe. That's why your toaster doesn't electrocute you; and if it did you could probably sue underwrite labs.

Ah the cries of the minarchist... "just a little" he doth declare. "Just a little evil is all I want, just a little."
We tried a little... a little evil, the American experiment it was called. It lasted not but 50 years, and is now the largest empire of them all.