• Log in or sign up for an account here: https://www.sythe.org/login

Is government necessary?

Sythe Awards 2009 Winner
Your definition of slavery is really pushing the limits of what it actually is. It is not an over-sweeping generalization that anyone who has less rights than another is a slave. Telling a blind man he can not drive does not make him a slave in comparison to another. Slavery is about ownership but I will give it to you that there are similar themes among slavery and government, but they are no where near similar.

Your analogy is irrelevant. A disabled person is physically unable to drive without encroaching on the rights of others. Telling an able person they cannot move out of a given geographical area, taking their home at the point of a gun, and kidnapping them and locking them in a rape room if they do something you don't like... that's something rather different.

Homelessness is not against the law or it would not exist as they would be arrested and thrown in jail.

They often are... otherwise they're abused. The government is supposed to protect innocent people using its streets and facilities, but they can't even do that right; there are hundreds of Dnepropetrovsk maniacs terrorizing homeless people and the police do nothing.

No one forces you to work. It is silly not to work, even without government because you need a way to provide for yourself and perhaps your family. Thus the government can not be forcing everyone to work when they would rather not. The housing claim is ridiculous to say the least. You are taking governmental regulation to the far extreme of terrible. If I want to rent an apartment, 99.99% of times (at least) I will be able to without the government telling me I can not which makes that argument also extremely weak. The last point is also taken to a far extreme. You could easily just walk into Mexico without much of a problem and getting a passport is extremely easy and it is very rare that the government will revoke it. Again, 99.99% of the time there isn't a problem, so again your argument is fairly weak.

A good portion of the money you could spend on the apartment will be stolen by men in costumes. The rent will be much higher because of those same costumed bandits stealing from your landlord, who in turn has to pay a great deal for the apartment complex because of how much the bandits stole from the builders, the mixers, the contractors, the architects, and so on.

The answer to all of these questions can be found in the Enlightenment-era literature from several hundred years ago.

And the answer to your answers can be found in countless brilliant sources that have sprung up in a movement that began during, and has strengthened since, the peak of the Enlightenment. Political Justice (Godwin) is a wonderful piece if you spare the time to read it. Tellingly, your sources' works against the state are far more notable.

In a perfect world, government would be unnecessary. From Common Sense: "For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform, and irresistibly obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver; but that not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his property to furnish means for the protection of the rest; and this he is induced to do by the same prudence which in every other case advises him out of two evils to choose the least."

Barely worth replying to. This is founded upon the foolish premise that man has the option of deferring to another "lawgiver." His conclusion seems like his thousandth Freudian slip supporting Christianity, but I digress. Look around you; the government is not a magical being or even an ethereal social construct, neither of which exist. The government is people with weapons hurting people without them. Whether or not man "needs" another lawgiver, the government is composed of humans who, as it happens, are subject to the same temptations Paine believes necessitate government.

That's not what I was referring to. From Agrarian Justice: "Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained. All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man's own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came."

Fine...? Though the premise is flawed, I won't bother addressing it because the quote itself isn't relevant. Anti-authoritarianism has little to do with property ownership. Marx and I are both vehemently anti-state.

YES, without there would be chaos !

1. Prove it. 2. In what way is the United States orderly? 3. Even if you're correct, why is order good?

The most pure idea of "government free society" has already been tried and has failed countless times (sorry, I don't have examples but the fact that it, the original theory of class free communism, does not exist in real life seems like evidence enough.)

I haven't endorsed communism at any point during this thread. Communism is a bastardized term and, even by its original definition, is not the only form of anti-statehood. I should've stopped reading your post at "it has already failed countless times (sorry, I have no examples)".

Without governments there will be too much crime and gangs will try and lead communities.

Sort of like... a government?

I think the big question is, if it wasn't necessary, would the world come to complete chaos?

No, and your statement is proof enough that you're emotionally unable to accept the concept at hand. You just asked: "If government wasn't necessary, would it be necessary?"
 
Is government necessary? - Theoretically No, Practically yes.

Why?

Everything would turn to chaos, there would be widespread famine, there would be no policing, If there was who would fund it? Anyone kind hearted enough to Fund police and feed the hungry would have there money taken from them, Nothing could be done about this due to the lack of funding for police.

Typical examples - War lords that plauge many african countries. If there is no control or order it is impossible for anyone normal doing well for themselves, we would turn back to our basic instincts, fitest survive. Brains mean nothing in a world of chaos.


Although I'd love to not pay taxes and be discriminated frequently by bad police that can't do there job to save there lives. It's simply impossible a life with government is better than a life of chaos, which ultimately will lead to a government.
 
Is government necessary? - Theoretically No, Practically yes.

Why?

Everything would turn to chaos, there would be widespread famine, there would be no policing, If there was who would fund it? Anyone kind hearted enough to Fund police and feed the hungry would have there money taken from them, Nothing could be done about this due to the lack of funding for police.

Typical examples - War lords that plauge many african countries. If there is no control or order it is impossible for anyone normal doing well for themselves, we would turn back to our basic instincts, fitest survive. Brains mean nothing in a world of chaos.


Although I'd love to not pay taxes and be discriminated frequently by bad police that can't do there job to save there lives. It's simply impossible a life with government is better than a life of chaos, which ultimately will lead to a government.

You have to try and understand, who would keep the society in-line and in-check if we had nobody to tell us what to do?
 
Extreme Homosex
Halloween 2013
All i have to say look at the "wild west" times in the united states.
So if you want to keep people more civilized i would think you need some sort of leadership

P.S dont flame my answer lol its just my opinion.
 
Without government the would would be chaos. Who would stop someone from killing another person? Everything would fall down the drain without order.
 
True liberal = Anarchy. Bad.
True conservative = Unitarianism. Bad.
^The above would only work in a perfect world. We do not have a perfect world.

Government is necessary to find the point right in the middle of left & right, they should allow freedom while maintaining peace and order, and one that believes in "love" as a form of government clearly does not realize that liberalism is a form of increasing entropy, which is the short hand of chaos.

So in essence, yes, government is necessary always in order to maintain stability.
If a government becomes to strict, then the people overthrow it.
If the people become too unruly, natural sense creates the need and formation of law and order by the people.
 
I don't believe a body of people can remain under anarchy for long. Someone would be bound to aspire to govern them (or rule them dictatorially). And as the sheep people are, enough of them will follow. Someone will promise safety and benefits, and people will believe it.

This doesn't explain why I think government is necessary, but why I don't think there can be a group of people under anarchy for long
 
<3 n4n0
Christmas 2013
Lawrence
Two Factor Authentication User
The problem with a lack of goverment is a lack of leadership, communism is/was an attempt at a egalitarian society where every individual is equal and has the same rights and wealth etc.

The issue with such a society is that it is only a matter of time before an individual takes charge, such books as Animal farm have depicted this fantastically with factors such as the 'committee of pigs' (if my memory serves me correct). Communism as a tool for a egaliatrian society works, it is us as human beings and our nature that 'corrupt' the societal model.

~ Sub
 
In Memory of Jon
<3 n4n0
Sythe Awards 2013 Winner
Sythe Awards 2014 Winner
Sythe Awards 2015 Winner
Yes, to a certain extent. Without proper authority it would be chaos, on the other hand however, too much authority can be just as bad.
 
<3 n4n0
Christmas 2013
Lawrence
Two Factor Authentication User
Yes, to a certain extent. Without proper authority it would be chaos, on the other hand however, too much authority can be just as bad.

I would agree for the most part, but another way of looking at the situation is that we (for the most part) directly elect our governments, and as such it is also our responsability to make them accountable for their actions, sadly it is this aspect which I believe as a society we have let slip.
 
With out the goverment, there will not be any order, for example, take samolia, that country now is going haywire, there are terriorits, the gangs rule parts of country, and etc.
 
I think so, people have to be controlled somehow, otherwise there'd be crises
 
I would say no, but the conditions in which a peaceful society can occur without uniform enforcement of acceptable behavior are many.
 
Everyone above is asserting that the state creates order, but that argument requires two assumptions: (1) humans are chaotic by default and (2) human rulers create order. These assumptions are incompatible.

Incorrect. There are many examples in science where individually unstable things bond together to create a stable unit.
The reason why humans are "chaotic" is because, barring minor emotional ties, we are selfish due to the instinct of self-preservation. This instinct keeps us alive, but it also generates greed, and the desire for power. The society that we live in makes it beneficial for the self-preserving politician to serve the needs of the majority in order to maintain power. Of course the system is not perfect, but yes, order is created.

I have a question: how would you explain the mass looting that occurs during times when there is an unstable government?
 
Incorrect. There are many examples in science where individually unstable things bond together to create a stable unit.
The reason why humans are "chaotic" is because, barring minor emotional ties, we are selfish due to the instinct of self-preservation. This instinct keeps us alive, but it also generates greed, and the desire for power. The society that we live in makes it beneficial for the self-preserving politician to serve the needs of the majority in order to maintain power. Of course the system is not perfect, but yes, order is created.

I have a question: how would you explain the mass looting that occurs during times when there is an unstable government?
Weak willed and wicked people to begin with will do that. Look at Japan. After the Tsunami in Japan there were little robberies, the community(and the world) helped out and rebuild.
 
Sythe Awards 2009 Winner
Incorrect. There are many examples in science where individually unstable things bond together to create a stable unit.
The reason why humans are "chaotic" is because, barring minor emotional ties, we are selfish due to the instinct of self-preservation. This instinct keeps us alive, but it also generates greed, and the desire for power. The society that we live in makes it beneficial for the self-preserving politician to serve the needs of the majority in order to maintain power. Of course the system is not perfect, but yes, order is created.

You're saying that (1) humans are unstable individually, (2) humans are stable as a collective, and (3) an individual human ruler creates stability.

I have a question: how would you explain the mass looting that occurs during times when there is an unstable government?

Men in blue costumes steal food from the poor and give it to billionaires every day. If the poor resist, the men in blue costumes kidnap them. If the poor don't want to be kidnapped, they are killed. I remain unswayed by this ethereal threat of "mass lootings."
 
Runescape Gamblingrunescape gambling
Back
Top