In what order should I learn different languages?

[Arya]

Since HTML knowledge is needed to learn CSS,
and CSS knowledge is needed to learn Javascript,

in what order should I learn the different web languages?

 

[70i]

You should learn js with jquery. Wouldn't really make sense to learn backend languages like php/sql before learning at least the basics of a front end one.

Edit: Misread your post I thought you said you knew HTML/CSS, you should be familiar with those first. Google free website templates, download, and look at them and make some changes. It helps to have a complete page for example.

 

[SmokeHut]

You should learn js with jquery. Wouldn't really make sense to learn backend languages like php/sql before learning at least the basics of a front end one.

Tell this to me 10 years ago..

I started with php/sql and found html/css to be a dream.

Personally, I would start with html and css. They're not that difficult. If you're having trouble, tutsplus provide great courses on it.

 

[Arya]

So it's looking like a good order is HTML --> CSS --> JS --> PHP --> ect

My end result is to be able to code android/apple apps front-end & back-end. & you started with a back-end language, SmokeHut? That sounds insane. o.o

 

[Avenue]

HTML -> CSS -> JS sounds fine. There are plenty of tutorials on YouTube. I used this website myself back in the day:

http://www.w3schools.com/

Good luck.

 

[SuF]

Literally just find a tutorial for front end web development and learn HTML / CSS / Javascript all at the same time. HTML / CSS are just markup that you layout a website with. Javascript is a programming language to make dynamic content with HTML / CSS. Learn them all together.

 

[SmokeHut]

So it's looking like a good order is HTML --> CSS --> JS --> PHP --> ect

My end result is to be able to code android/apple apps front-end & back-end. & you started with a back-end language, SmokeHut? That sounds insane. o.o

Well it sounds like a similar path that I've taken. Yeah I started with php, but didn't receive an education in programming. I just taught myself, front-end didn't really interest me as layouts were a bit boring. I preferred complex math problems and creating methods. Until I realised what profits are in front-end development I didn't touch it.

However, some people would advise you the learn web programming, some would tell you to learn objective-c and/or java for the apps.

The advice will be pretty vague and you'll need to find your own steps. The only thing I would advise is to not leave it too long before joining the app development party.. Otherwise your ideas may have already been implemented.

EDIT: Personally, rather than learning a langauge, learn programming. As well as OOP this will help you greatly in app development, learn what MVC is etc.

 

[Arya]

front end web

Never actually knew what 'front end' and 'back end' meant; became more confused when I looked it up. ):

I see what you're saying though. I may not have thought about it before you suggested; my mind was focused on 'learn HTML and CSS to the FULLEST, THEN learn javascript', but as I code more markup and watch more js tutorials, I find I'm better at actually progressing while learning more about each language at the same time.

However, some people would advise you the learn web programming, some would tell you to learn objective-c and/or java for the apps.

EDIT: Personally, rather than learning a langauge, learn programming. As well as OOP this will help you greatly in app development, learn what MVC is etc.

Hearing the terms 'front end' 'back-end' 'programming' make me realize I've already developed something of a bad habit. I originally thought that HTML/CSS were markup 'styling' languages, js was how you made your interface react (where the bones and blood and organs are coded to make the body move), and languages like PHP, etc were your 'back-end' languages, where that .01% existed that a regular user of an app has no idea of. The 'god particles' of programming for lack of better words;

A lack of knowledge leaves a lot of room for incorrect assumptions about the more difficult programming languages, unfortunately.

tl;dr What's the difference between learning languages and learning programming?

 

[SmokeHut]

Never actually knew what 'front end' and 'back end' meant; became more confused when I looked it up. ):

I see what you're saying though. I may not have thought about it before you suggested; my mind was focused on 'learn HTML and CSS to the FULLEST, THEN learn javascript', but as I code more markup and watch more js tutorials, I find I'm better at actually progressing while learning more about each language at the same time.

Hearing the terms 'front end' 'back-end' 'programming' make me realize I've already developed something of a bad habit. I originally thought that HTML/CSS were markup 'styling' languages, js was how you made your interface react (where the bones and blood and organs are coded to make the body move), and languages like PHP, etc were your 'back-end' languages, where that .01% existed that a regular user of an app has no idea of. The 'god particles' of programming for lack of better words;

A lack of knowledge leaves a lot of room for incorrect assumptions about the more difficult programming languages, unfortunately.

tl;dr What's the difference between learning languages and learning programming?

Learning patterns, objects and things like that. As opposed to learning html, it wont help you in app development. Where as an object-oriented language like php will help you, massively.

Think of the languages as syntax, if you want to create a method in php you'll do something like

function runSomething($age,$height) {
     
} 

in objective-c you will do something like this

-(void)runSomething:(int)age withHeight:(int)height {

}

A method/function like this is a pattern, not necessarily a language. Yeah it helps to know the syntax but throughout most OOP languages you'll find patterns like this, and it helps to be learning them, as opposed to learning the language and getting yourself into bad habits and not using correct design patterns to achieve things.

So basically, you stated you want to learn to program for apps eventually, then my advice would be to start learning OOP languages, like java, php or objective-c even though they're a little harder, you'll learn to program for OOP as opposed to HTML/CSS where you'll learn layouts and nothing OOP which is your end goal.

EDIT: also, your question about front-end and back-end.

Think of it this way, what the user see's is front end, anything that they don't see is backend.

For instance, I want to tell them their username when they login "Welcome Arya"

I'll take your $session id, look it up in the users database with php, then echo that to you in a html format so you can read it on the screen.

Front end is the username they see, the back-end is collecting the name to display to them.

SecondEdit:

Also your front-end and back-end don't really apply when making apps.

You'll use a Model-View-Controller (MVC) software pattern to achieve it. And it'll be the same language.

So your front-end / back-end doesn't really apply to this.

 

[Arya]

@SmokeHut - I didn't know it at the time but this is an awesome perspective.

I've made great strides in HTML/CSS, while learning syntax and a few handfuls of functions for JS.

I've also made significant (for not knowing anything, I suppose) progress with PHP(I enjoy PHP), learning syntax and different functions that I can use to interact with my web page. I've browsed Python (Syntax, not so many significant functions) as well as SCAR/SIMBA (Syntax, a few handfuls of useful rules, as well as a handful of useful functions though none to code my own script from scratch yet).

Now I'm learning C.

I made a beautiful website with only HTML/CSS (It wasn't very interactive as I've developed a love/hate relationship with JS, though I've found many CSS methods that create animation/interaction for the same results as JS), though I'm not where I'd like to be to show you guys yet.

When I say Syntax, i.e:
For SCAR/SIMBA, I know the basics: how to properly input mouse commands, keyboard commands, procedures, comments, includes, variables, as well as manipulating and converting those variables. I can also properly input connective conditional statements, loops(for, while, repeat), static/dynamic arrays, functions(INPUT, not be a wizard yet) and the famous 'FindColor'.

One question I have, relating to Syntax: How far am I into a language when I've learned proper input of these elements(the ones I listed for SCAR/SIMBA) for any given language? I sense that SCAR/SIMBA is different as it's limitations are immense when compared to full-blown programming languages. Still, I ask because I haven't the slightest clue where to think of myself in the context of mastering languages.

Are those elements even categorized under Syntax?

My main question: I know it's highly subjective but would anyone have criticism relating to starting off coding as a jack of many trades, though a master of none (yet)?

 

[SuF]

@SmokeHut - I didn't know it at the time but this is an awesome perspective.

I've made great strides in HTML/CSS, while learning syntax and a few handfuls of functions for JS.

I've also made significant (for not knowing anything, I suppose) progress with PHP(I enjoy PHP), learning syntax and different functions that I can use to interact with my web page. I've browsed Python (Syntax, not so many significant functions) as well as SCAR/SIMBA (Syntax, a few handfuls of useful rules, as well as a handful of useful functions though none to code my own script from scratch yet).

Now I'm learning C.

I made a beautiful website with only HTML/CSS (It wasn't very interactive as I've developed a love/hate relationship with JS, though I've found many CSS methods that create animation/interaction for the same results as JS), though I'm not where I'd like to be to show you guys yet.

When I say Syntax, i.e:
For SCAR/SIMBA, I know the basics: how to properly input mouse commands, keyboard commands, procedures, comments, includes, variables, as well as manipulating and converting those variables. I can also properly input connective conditional statements, loops(for, while, repeat), static/dynamic arrays, functions(INPUT, not be a wizard yet) and the famous 'FindColor'.

One question I have, relating to Syntax: How far am I into a language when I've learned proper input of these elements(the ones I listed for SCAR/SIMBA) for any given language? I sense that SCAR/SIMBA is different as it's limitations are immense when compared to full-blown programming languages. Still, I ask because I haven't the slightest clue where to think of myself in the context of mastering languages.

Are those elements even categorized under Syntax?

My main question: I know it's highly subjective but would anyone have criticism relating to starting off coding as a jack of many trades, though a master of none (yet)?

At some point you need to get much deeper into one specific language so you can learn the more complex ideas behind programming. Learning new languages is super simple since they generally share all of the same basic ideas. It just involves learning what the syntactic differences are between them, which for a lot of languages are minimal or easy to learn / Google. It sounds like you've scratched the surface of like maybe a third of an intro to programming class that you would take in a college.

 

[Jimmy]

One question I have, relating to Syntax: How far am I into a language when I've learned proper input of these elements(the ones I listed for SCAR/SIMBA) for any given language? I sense that SCAR/SIMBA is different as it's limitations are immense when compared to full-blown programming languages. Still, I ask because I haven't the slightest clue where to think of myself in the context of mastering languages.

Color searches using basic pixel manipulation aren't all that complicated, so you ought to be able to implement the code in any language without much trouble--Java or C++ or VB.NET or Python would be equally capable languages for this sort of thing, though most people don't code their java bots this way, and color isn't the "in" thing to do. (Although object recognition could be neat with some advanced 3D object modeling, AI, neural nets, etc., I have yet to see anyone try to make a well-functioning bot this way--everybody basically just steals data from the client and identifies them based on opcode patterns just like everybody was doing in 2007 and 2008.)

Are those elements even categorized under Syntax?

Not so much. Now you're talking more about external APIs and general language features.

My main question: I know it's highly subjective but would anyone have criticism relating to starting off coding as a jack of many trades, though a master of none (yet)?

This is how most people learn to code there's nothing wrong with it. As you experience the differences between languages, you'll better understand the intuitively the disparate theoretical schemas of computer science. (But the simple act of writing code cannot be a substitute for good lecture or reading a good book on coding--there's simply too much research and too much known about computers to completely reinvent the wheel yourself.)

I recommend thinking up some small assignments to challenge yourself with and going for it. And definitely try to pick up and object oriented language like C++ or Java at some point in the near future--it will greatly enhance your repertoire and skillset (both of which would integrate well with whatever C you already know, although there are no firm rules here; remember, programming is more of an art than a science).

At some point you need to get much deeper into one specific language so you can learn the more complex ideas behind programming. Learning new languages is super simple since they generally share all of the same basic ideas. It just involves learning what the syntactic differences are between them, which for a lot of languages are minimal or easy to learn / Google. It sounds like you've scratched the surface of like maybe a third of an intro to programming class that you would take in a college.

And this especially. I've been coding in Java since Middle School, but have finally started taking some of my upper division coding courses in college, and the thing I've realized through it all is that it builds on itself and builds on itself and builds on itself and builds on itself. And not just the programming.

If you want to major in math or physics for example, you'll surely need to learn to program in Matlab (the matrix laboratory, written in C, C++, and Java)--and you can extend your Matlab code in whatever language you like. Similarly, if you're coding in Java and decide you need some more features, you can seamlessly integrate C++ with JNI or Python with Jython.

A writer or a mathematician who can code proficiently is surely more valuable than one who cannot. Similarly, a coder who can write or do complicated physics or mathematics is more impressive than a dog who only knows one trick--namely, the software engineer (as opposed to game programmer or theoretical computer scientist or electrical engineer or mathematician or physicist).

The longer you program, the better you'll understand your machine, the more efficient solutions and more hack-y solutions you'll be able to produce. But until you understand a language (or preferably a few languages) well enough that you can go beyond all semantics to implement your pure, unadulterated thought into compilable source code, you'll main opponent won't be your own imagination--it'll be your understanding of C or Java or PHP.

Programming, as with every sport and as with each of the arts, is a devotion best practiced with great care--and great revelry. If you aren't having fun, move on to a new project because as a coder, you must play the part of a sophisticated and self-managed engineer, choosing carefully how to allocate your limited time.

 

[SmokeHut]

One question I have, relating to Syntax: How far am I into a language when I've learned proper input of these elements(the ones I listed for SCAR/SIMBA) for any given language? I sense that SCAR/SIMBA is different as it's limitations are immense when compared to full-blown programming languages. Still, I ask because I haven't the slightest clue where to think of myself in the context of mastering languages.

Are those elements even categorized under Syntax?

My main question: I know it's highly subjective but would anyone have criticism relating to starting off coding as a jack of many trades, though a master of none (yet)?

I thought my previous comment would make more sense after you'd sunk your teeth into it a bit.

A lot of java/simba scripts are just hooks within the API, so basically, you're using custom functions, that you didn't make. If that makes sense.

Say I create a function to right click and attack a certain npc, I take the npc value and perhaps combat level. From that I check if it require a right click or left click with the combat level difference, and then move the mouse to it, and click it. You're just calling that function, from within the API.

Every language has it's limitations, however PHP is one of them that you can make it do just about anything with a number. And a lot of back end programming, is just numbers.

To your last question.

I often feel the same way, especially when I get stuck. The problem is, I have nothing to compare myself to. So I have no idea where I stand, and like yourself, I taught myself. However, I've managed to create some pretty complicated things, such as a php 7 card hand eval for poker, a full multiplayer card game in objective-c via Bluetooth & WiFi. And it all works efficiently and almost flawless. So I guess I could say, I'm advanced. However, I do not know that.

Like others suggested, just make projects that you want to see work. That's often how the greatest things are made.

 

[SuF]

PHP is god awful and I would prefer you use node.js instead because even though that is god awful as well it is not nearly in the same league as PHP.

 

[SmokeHut]

PHP is god awful and I would prefer you use node.js instead because even though that is god awful as well it is not nearly in the same league as PHP.

Haha people have their distastes. However, php is very powerful and capable. The only downside to php I've found is the constant error handling and security aspects you have to involve.

 

[kmjt]

I thought my previous comment would make more sense after you'd sunk your teeth into it a bit.

A lot of java/simba scripts are just hooks within the API, so basically, you're using custom functions, that you didn't make. If that makes sense.

Say I create a function to right click and attack a certain npc, I take the npc value and perhaps combat level. From that I check if it require a right click or left click with the combat level difference, and then move the mouse to it, and click it. You're just calling that function, from within the API.

Every language has it's limitations, however PHP is one of them that you can make it do just about anything with a number. And a lot of back end programming, is just numbers.

To your last question.

I often feel the same way, especially when I get stuck. The problem is, I have nothing to compare myself to. So I have no idea where I stand, and like yourself, I taught myself. However, I've managed to create some pretty complicated things, such as a php 7 card hand eval for poker, a full multiplayer card game in objective-c via Bluetooth & WiFi. And it all works efficiently and almost flawless. So I guess I could say, I'm advanced. However, I do not know that.

Like others suggested, just make projects that you want to see work. That's often how the greatest things are made.

I think it is worth mentioning that if he has never programmed for iOS he might as well just completely forget objective c for the most part and learn Swift since it seems to be the future for iOS. Although I won't be switching from objective c anytime soon lol.

 

[SmokeHut]

I think it is worth mentioning that if he has never programmed for iOS he might as well just completely forget objective c for the most part and learn Swift since it seems to be the future for iOS. Although I won't be switching from objective c anytime soon lol.

I'm still yet to try it so I never consider it whenever I'm providing advice haha, but yes you're absolutely right.

 

[Kimiko]

If you want to learn Programming, you don't start high level and spend years working your way down.

You start low level, in Assembly. Learning the instruction set. Learning how the stack works. Learning the purpose of volatile and non volatile registers. Learning the different calling conventions used in compilers.
Once you grasp it, you can start going up to a machine level language such as C.

Learn the compiler process.
How the compiler translates code to what the processor can understand.
You'll be able to look at a function call in C and replicate it in Assembly very close to what the compiler can generate. You'll know how the heap, .data section and locals are handled.

Of course, now compilers are very efficient at optimization. I'd say more so than humans.

But if you're able to look at a function call and replicate it with assembly,
push the arguments onto the stack.
Depending on the calling convention either from left to right, or right to left.
Then how the call instruction pushes the return address onto stack and makes a non conditional jump to the target address.
Then how the function pulls the arguments from the stack using the ESP register and after the standard prologue using the EBP register, then how the function pops the return address from the stack and returns back to the instruction after the call,
how to clean up the stack, either let the callee or the caller fix the stack pointer,
you've pretty much learnt to program.

There's really little restriction beyond this point to what language you want to embark on, other than the syntax and the API the language provides.

 

[SmokeHut]

If you want to learn Programming, you don't start high level and spend years working your way down.

You start low level, in Assembly. Learning the instruction set. Learning how the stack works. Learning the purpose of volatile and non volatile registers. Learning the different calling conventions used in compilers.
Once you grasp it, you can start going up to a machine level language such as C.

Learn the compiler process.
How the compiler translates code to what the processor can understand.
You'll be able to look at a function call in C and replicate it in Assembly very close to what the compiler can generate. You'll know how the heap, .data section and locals are handled.

Of course, now compilers are very efficient at optimization. I'd say more so than humans.

But if you're able to look at a function call and replicate it with assembly,
push the arguments onto the stack.
Depending on the calling convention either from left to right, or right to left.
Then how the call instruction pushes the return address onto stack and makes a non conditional jump to the target address.
Then how the function pulls the arguments from the stack using the ESP register and after the standard prologue using the EBP register, then how the function pops the return address from the stack and returns back to the instruction after the call,
how to clean up the stack, either let the callee or the caller fix the stack pointer,
you've pretty much learnt to program.

There's really little restriction beyond this point to what language you want to embark on, other than the syntax and the API the language provides.

Whilst it's hard to argue with that approach, what I would say is that most people want to start programming to be creative and inventive. However, starting at the absolute bottom will yield little satisfaction for your creations for the first year or two. which in some cases would deflate most people from continuing past a few weeks or a month or so.

I personally preferred to be thrown in at the deep end and struggle my way through to create what I wanted regardless of the difficulty. But I can't argue with what you said as it's definitely the best approach to becoming an expert.

 

[SuF]

If you want to learn Programming, you don't start high level and spend years working your way down.

You start low level, in Assembly. Learning the instruction set. Learning how the stack works. Learning the purpose of volatile and non volatile registers. Learning the different calling conventions used in compilers.
Once you grasp it, you can start going up to a machine level language such as C.

Learn the compiler process.
How the compiler translates code to what the processor can understand.
You'll be able to look at a function call in C and replicate it in Assembly very close to what the compiler can generate. You'll know how the heap, .data section and locals are handled.

Of course, now compilers are very efficient at optimization. I'd say more so than humans.

But if you're able to look at a function call and replicate it with assembly,
push the arguments onto the stack.
Depending on the calling convention either from left to right, or right to left.
Then how the call instruction pushes the return address onto stack and makes a non conditional jump to the target address.
Then how the function pulls the arguments from the stack using the ESP register and after the standard prologue using the EBP register, then how the function pops the return address from the stack and returns back to the instruction after the call,
how to clean up the stack, either let the callee or the caller fix the stack pointer,
you've pretty much learnt to program.

There's really little restriction beyond this point to what language you want to embark on, other than the syntax and the API the language provides.

Completely disagree. 90% of coders do not need to know any assembly or how a compiler works at all. They just need to know some logic and how to glue stuff together. Start high and build some cool stuff and work your way down if you want to.