George floyd

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by FireZ, Jun 7, 2020.

George floyd
  1. Unread #21 - Jun 12, 2020 at 12:58 AM
  2. Shredderbeam
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    George floyd

    I'm sure people said the same about the American civil rights movement in the 60's.

    I haven't seen anybody protesting fire departments or EMTs, but putting that aside, are you suggesting that protesting against police brutality is arguably the same as police brutality against minorities?

    I'm sure Canada is leaps and bounds ahead of the U.S., but that's really not saying very much. POC Canadians face the same problems that POC Americans do, and don't get me started on how Canada treats the First Nations. If you would like specific data, I can provide it.

    I don't know if you're white, a POC, or what, but I'm sure you can understand that not all oppression is visible to the public eye.

    I encourage you to tell this story to a POC and ask for their sympathy. I'd love to hear how that goes.

    What do you think their end goal is?

    Hang on, that's a very confident "no". What do you have to back that up? Are you an authority on the matter?

    It kinda seems like ending racism WOULD solve it. Also, I'm not sure why you put "racism" in quotes.

    I'm sure the majority of people aren't actively racist in the "KKK lynchings" sense, but then again, nobody seriously argued that that was the case, did they?

    There is such a problem. I'm sorry that you haven't been exposed to it.

    I don't understand, what's the issue that's bigger than racism?

    Uh...listening to victims of racism would be a good start.
     
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  3. Unread #22 - Jun 12, 2020 at 9:18 AM
  4. Ardy
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    George floyd

    I'm saying racism isn't the cause of the brutality. Are there stereotypes? Sure. But is it specifically racism? No it's not. You can't tell me that you don't recognize that some of these black communities crime rates are astronomical. Again, is it because they're black communities? Absolutely not. Is it because these communities need help? Yes.


    It's interesting you bring up the First Nations. I do think that there are significant issues within the community whether it be poverty, mistreatment by the government, confusion from the general population, or something else but I again would argue that it isn't racism that causes them to be in the position that they are in. To relate it to the topic at hand I would disagree about the mistreatment of First Nations by police. They're almost an identical example to the above where the crime rates, murder, and abuse in these communities is astronomically higher than those of different communities. Specifically to get you a statistic, the homicide rate is 6x times higher.



    Sure, but I'm asking for examples so I can understand. Screaming that it's real isn't going to accomplish anything. Tell me how it happens, and tell me how to fix it.



    You have to recognize in order to move forward we have to treat everyone as equals. That means forgiving past grievances, and moving forward. My children have nothing to do with anything that happened in the past, and vice versa your kids shouldn't be treated any differently than mine because we're all equals. Living in the past isn't getting us anywhere as a society.


    No idea. I think everyone has good intentions, but I think they're missing the mark and fast forward a month or two this won't be the flavor of the month anymore and it'll just go back to the way it was.


    Are you kidding? You're actually going to tell me that it's racism that causes these communities to have incredibly higher crime rates, murder rates, gang affiliations, drug use, fatherless children, motherless children, kids getting accidentally killed by shootings? The reason their statistics are higher (in terms of interactions with cops) is because of all of the above mentioned. Of course if a predominantly black (or any other race for that matter) community has 5x more crime they're going to have 5x more cop interventions.



    My comments above likely answer this.



    Sure they do. I've seen people called racist numerous times over the last week for solely having a different opinion on the situation. I'm far from being racist, but people want to do what feels right and not listen. Everyone is too busy shouting to actually sit down and talk.





    I've mentioned several issues, but let's pick another one for example:

    These people are being robbed of positive influences in their lives. People who have been successful in navigating their way out of these poor situations have often had positive influences such a father, church, social group, or others to influence them.



    Sure. I absolutely believe that if someone is racist they should be removed from any position of power and if found to be guilty (by the established system of the law) they be served justice. But putting a blanket policy on everyone because of a minority of people isn't a good option.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  5. Unread #23 - Jun 13, 2020 at 2:01 AM
  6. Shredderbeam
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    George floyd

    What do you mean "no it's not"? What authority have you to make that kind of statement? Are you an expert on the matter? Why should anybody take your word for it?

    I never said anything of the sort. I questioned your comparison of people protesting against emergency services to cops brutalizing POC. You SPECIFICALLY said: "Painting police, fire, ems, government with the same brush is arguably the same thing these people are 'protesting'. Prejudice." Are you serious? Do you truly believe that they're the same thing?

    I guess I'm not sure why you think that the homicide rate of a group of people equates to their being treated as less than human.

    You actually didn't ask. Also, I'm not sure why you're talking about "screaming", that's very strange.

    As a white man, I don't know every single possible instance of racism, and I don't have the solution. All I said was that I'm sure you understand that you understand the concept of oppression not being immediately obvious to you

    Sure, let's treat everybody as equals, but let's also acknowledge that white children born today have a very significant advantage over children of colour. Nobody said anything about living in the past, I'm only talking about acknowledging present realities.

    Also, I know that this point doesn't really hold water, but imagine going up to a POC and telling them "hey, you have to forgive me to move on". How well do you think that goes?

    Affirmative action will be over in a month or two? What?

    I'm interested in why you think that a black (or any other race, fair enough) community has X times more crime.

    Okay, fair enough, I'm sure there a few crazies who actually do that sort of thing (there always are).

    Though, when you say "a different opinion", I can't help but feel like it's not so simple as that.

    Growing up with one parent is a bigger issue than systemic racism?

    First, being racist just by itself isn't generally considered a crime by the western world.

    Second, what blanket policy are you talking about?
     
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  7. Unread #24 - Jun 13, 2020 at 9:59 AM
  8. Ardy
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    George floyd

    Okay fair ball - throw it back at you. What authority, proof, or expertise do you have on the matter to tell me that it is?



    I said it's arguably the same thing. Different results, different situations, but at the end of the day it's making an assumption about _____ because of _________.



    I'm suggesting to you that the statistics would likely show that the being treated as less than human is not a black specific issue.

    If 1 white person out of 100 white crimes gets abused = 1%
    If 5 black person out of 500 black crimes gets abused = 1%

    Just because they may be the most common doesn't necessarily mean that it's unfair or unjust treatment. If the crime rate is way up, there is a significantly higher likelihood of seeing police interventions.



    I quote: "Forgive me because I live in a different country (Canada) and I recognize that our country seems to be further ahead than the states below us but can you give me some examples of the oppression people are facing today?"


    Sure, but I don't buy into any logic (not specific to this debate) of believing something without seeing cold hard facts about it. You can tell me all day long that you have purple hair but until you prove to me that you do I'm going to take it with a grain of salt.




    Okay - great. I would agree that the majority have an advantage - now what I would debate is that a black kid in a nice suburban residential neighborhood of today wouldn't be at a disadvantage. That being said, those poor kids that are being raised in these communities (that are the glaring example of my debates) that are facing huge issues because they're stuck in a cycle are at a huge disadvantage, but it's not because of their race. It's because of the cycle they're stuck in and the communities that they live in.


    The forgiving motion is something that psychologists and therapists talk about with patients of all sorts of trauma, abuse, to get over their issues.

    Here's good ol' Phil talking about it:



    Of course it will be. It's the day and age of impulse support, quick campaigns, etc. We won't be talking about this in two months (by the masses).


    Please keep in mind that blacks make up about 13% of the American Population:

    "Of the 822,671 arrests for non-aggravated assault, 31.4% were black and 18.4% Hispanic"

    "Overall, black Americans are arrested at 2.6 times the per-capita rate of all other Americans, and this ratio is even higher for murder (6.3 times) and robbery (8.1 times)"

    "93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks"

    "2011 to 2013 – 38.5 per cent of people arrested for murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault were black."




    There are totally people out there that are racist, but they don't represent the majority or anywhere near the majority. It can be as simple as that if you allow it to be. Again - saying everyone is racist (not saying that is what you are saying) gets you nowhere but following facts to actually fix a problem will. There's a problem here - but I don't think racism is the core of the problem. Maybe it caused it originally, but it's not what continues it today.

    It's not bigger than racism itself - but I don't really believe in the systemic racism ideology that's getting thrown around. Look up the statistics on families with two parents from the 80s and compare it today. We've moved backwards. The modern welfare system set these communities backwards.

    Good point - likely never will be with the constitution in the states. But we can at least remove those who are from positions of authority.

    I'll use the disbanding of a police force as an example - remove all of the police because 1-3 (mind you 1 is likely the outcome, one of them was brand new to the job) guys abused their power.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  9. Unread #25 - Jun 15, 2020 at 4:21 PM
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    George floyd

    I personally don't agree with the looting and damaging of property and what not, having said this I do feel the pain of the people and me myself being a minority I can understand.

    There needs to be law enforcement reform and a bunch of things but the public have to be abiding by the laws as well otherwise we have a zoo.
     
  11. Unread #26 - Jun 29, 2020 at 12:18 AM
  12. Shredderbeam
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    George floyd

    Sorry that I haven't replied in a while, busy life.

    I happy to explain why, but first, are you going to back up your emphatic statement of "no it's not", or are you conceding that you don't have anything to back it up?

    Generally speaking, when it's said that two things are "arguably the same thing" you're saying that there might be minute differences, but they're essentially interchangeable with each other, in moral/legal/whatever terms. Can you explain a little further about how "they both make an assumption" makes them arguably the same? Because there's plenty of situations where assumptions are made that I'd hesitate to compare to police brutality.

    I understand basic statistics.

    I'm curious as to why you say "the statistics would likely show" anything. Why do you think they would? Do you have evidence? Anything beyond just stating your opinion?

    Oh very true, but that cuts both ways. If there's a higher level of policing, there's a significantly higher likelihood of crime "occurring", simply because there's a higher cop-to-civilian ratio. If you posted those cops to any other neighbourhood, I'm sure you'd see a similar "spike" in crime.

    Oh, sure:

    - Higher rates of being stopped while driving.
    - Higher rates of being stopped while walking.
    - Lower rates of education
    - Higher poverty levels
    - Higher chance of being convicted for a crime as compared to white people

    I mean come on dude, surely you've heard of some of this before.

    Notwithstanding the fact that purple hair dye isn't exactly rare these days, you've never taken somebody's word at face value, ever? In your entire life?

    I agree that they face a massive disadvantage because of the poverty of their communities, but again, I'd love to know how you're 100% certain it's not because of their race.

    I'm going to be really generous and act as if this isn't a troll post (for the sake of anybody else reading this) - Dr. Phil is strangely not considered the final word on human psychology.

    Uh, okay, we'll see I guess.

    You misunderstand me. I'm asking as to why you think black communities have more crime. What do you think causes that?

    Again, the confidence - you're just saying "racism isn't the issue". Where's your evidence? If you can't post evidence, don't make the claim!

    Again, the claim with no evidence! If you're so sure of your beliefs, post some evidence!

    Once again, you can have all the opinions you want, but you have to back them up with something my dude.
     
  13. Unread #27 - Jun 29, 2020 at 11:13 PM
  14. Ardy
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    George floyd

    Please go ahead and give me evidence that it specifically is caused by racism. Most of the current "stats" that are being thrown around by leftist media are easily debunked and explained in different ways without feeding into the racism narrative that conveniently shows up every year there's an election.


    It's the current narrative that the police in general are bad/racist/killers because there are a few bad apples within the force. There's a bad apple in every job.


    [​IMG]

    Considering the crime rate by race is significantly higher within the black population and also considering the fact that they only represent 13% of the population I think this shows that there isn't a race specific issue here. Hispanics have similar statistics, and commit significantly less crime than the black counterparts.



    Are you suggesting that the police forces in America specifically put more police in areas because there are more black people there? Or do you think it may have something to do with crime rates, murders, rapes, assaults, etc?


    First two: The Stanford Open Policing Project
    Education: Do school districts spend less money on poor and minority students?
    Poverty Levels - totally true. I can even buy into the fact that they may have been put into hardship in previous years, I strongly believe that their race doesn't continue it today. I think people in these communities are trapped in a viscous cycle that needs serious intervention. I've talked with kids that are 10-14 in some of these communities and I feel so disappointed because of the environment they're being raised in.



    Sure I have, but at the end of the day anecdotal is anecdotal.



    What makes you and so many others convinced that it is? Statistics and evidence would show you some MAJOR issues that are facing the black community - but sure let's make a huge deal of the fractional amount of 'racism' that is here today.

    “You’re more likely to be struck by lightning than killed by a police officer”



    Lol - I literally just picked a random guy that everyone knows about. It's a common practice in counseling and psychology .


    Hard to say. Taking into consideration the amount of black on black violence I'd argue that it's not racism that drives it. I think the best thing that could ever happen to these communities would be if they completely blew up (not killing everyone obviously lol) and spread everyone (with their families, please don't twist my words) across the US. I think so many of these fractured families if given the opportunity in a world where violence, gangs, drugs, shootings, etc isn't their regular life they'd eventually thrive. How do you break the cycle they're in? I'm not disagreeing that racism may have originally put them into these communities, but I would again argue that it isn't racism that continues the cycle today.


    Please stop, please give me actual evidence that shows me that there is.

    Figurative question then - if the crime rate in these communities wasn't astronomically higher than the rest of the general population, do you think they'd still be killed as often? Or do you think it would go down?

    The literacy rate in the communities is terrible, the fatherless households is terrible, the chances of black students graduating (even with those who have higher per student spending) are terrible, the chances of getting locked up are high, chances of graduating college is poor, but you're going to tell me all of these issues is because white people are bad and hate black people? Really? How many white people do you know that actively hate/would discriminate against black people, or people or other races? I can't name anyone in my social network who I've ever even say the 'n' word (aside from a few black friends (cause they can say it, right?), let alone be racist.


    I haven't seen you show anything that would prove to me that it is racism that causes any of the real issues that plague these communities. Is it an idea? But most of the statistics that are floating around in media today are either manipulated to look worse and to meet the narrative, or are just inaccurate.

    People want to do good things, and unfortunately I think are falling victim to a narrative that is ultimately going to divide the country 10x worse than you've ever seen. I rarely think about race until these topics are brought up. Joe is Joe, Ardy is Ardy, Shredder is Shredder, I really don't care what color you are but the more we keep talking about it, the divide will continue. But please, continue dividing.

     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  15. Unread #28 - Jun 30, 2020 at 10:25 AM
  16. btar2
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    George floyd

    It's unfair for me to say all white people are racist
     
  17. Unread #29 - Jul 5, 2020 at 1:12 AM
  18. Shredderbeam
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    George floyd

    As I said, I'm happy to get into that WHEN you answer my question that I've asked several times:

    You're the one who said "no it's not" very emphatically. Do you have anything that specifically SUPPORTS this? Yes, or no?

    Are you trolling? Do you think that a bad apple in the police is the same as a bad apple in, say, the food service industry? I SPECIFICALLY asked how "they both make an assumption" makes them "arguably the same", and all you can say is "every job has bad apples"?


    ...This isn't a graph showing crime rates, this is a graph showing the number of people shot to death by the police, organised by race. Google image reverse search is your friend here. Why would you think that to be relevant?

    I didn't say that. I'm just pointing out the opposite side of your point of "if there's more crime, there'll be more police". As I said, it cuts both ways.

    I don't understand your point. The data shows black drivers pulled over at a higher rate than white drivers.

    I don't understand your point here, either. I never said anything on how much money schools are spending, I'm talking about level of education attained (high school diploma, college degree, etc.)

    It's good that you recognise that, but why do you feel that their race doesn't perpetuate those conditions today?

    Fair enough.

    As I've said, I'm happy to get into that WHEN you answer my question of how you're so certain. Every time I've asked that type of question, you've either posted something irrelevant, or tried to turn it around on me.

    The number of police killings is wrong - https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...b3b098-020f-11e9-9122-82e98f91ee6f_story.html

    But I don't understand the point you're making - I don't know why you think that police killings is the only thing that people are upset about.

    You picked a talk show host, dude, and one who is not a medical doctor. I thought that was something that everybody knows about.

    Maybe some therapists advise people to forgive and move on, I wouldn't know. You seem very confident that that's what people need to do, though. Why's that?

    But WHY? Right here is what I don't understand about your posts. You make a vague reference to statistics, then insert "I think". What about black-on-black violence? What specifically about it makes you think that racism has lost the force it once had? What is your actual line of thinking here?

    I have no idea what that would do, whether it would help or hurt.

    You're making the claim here.

    Obviously it would go down, but I think you know that I'm not so sure that all the oppression of these communities is due to their crime rates.

    I have literally never said that white people are bad and hate black people, and I think that you're intentionally oversimplifying. I'm also not sure why you're upset that black people can say the n-word.

    To put it in simple terms - I will happily provide evidence to argue my point as soon as you can back up your claims with something other than "well can you prove I'm wrong?".

    You rarely think about race...are you saying that you "don't see colour"?

    Morgan Freeman isn't the President of black people. You can't just point to a POC whose point of view you share and triumphantly claim victory.
     
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