Do not permanent ban scammers.

*CONTROVERSIAL*

This is just something I wanted to throw out there for discussion following que from SuF . (http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=912307)

Basically, I was considering the punishment for scamming on Sythe, and I figured out that it was slightly too harsh. Why is this? Before I answer that, let me just say that I don't support scamming in any way, and think that people who steal from others or take advantage of someone should most definitely be punished.

So, why is a permanent ban for scamming too harsh? Because it should be treated in a case-by-case scenario. Obviously, you wouldn't unban someone who scammed several hundred dollars worth of product. It's a much stronger offense than say... someone who recovers an account worth $20. Still, both are incredibly horrible to do, but one deserves a less harsh punishment.

I'm not going to attack Finn, I have no distrust of him, and respect him completely, but he's a prime example of people changing. You guys know of other mods who have had priors that have turned their actions around and brought more good than bad. So the theory here is, that people can change and should be given the chance to have the freedom to do so, and to work for it.

In the real world, a criminal's case is reviewed and punishment is determined by the severity of the damages, and he must make retribution. However, generally, a person will not be sentenced to a lifetime in prison for stealing $20. I'm sorry, it's absurd, especially since you can't prove that they'd do it again, you smack their hand, require them to pay the person back, or serve a certain amount of time doing community service/jail.

I'm not saying Sythe is the real world, and I'm not justifying the actions of scammers or criminals, I am saying, however, that a case-by-case review of the offense should be considered, and punishment should be in accordance with this.

However, I think if a person has been banned for scamming, they should also receive an upgraded TwC that also states they have a prior. This will never go away unless retribution is made, but they're not completely restricted from the website.

I'm not saying this would apply to every case, but I'm certain it's worth considering as some people who have done things against the rules of Sythe can change, and should be given the opportunity under strict observation and probation (syed, for example).

Discuss.

 

It's an idea that could theoretically work, but it would lead to some people scamming then just waiting it out and scamming again. Most criminals are repeat offenders, and scamming works the same way generally. There can be a few golden apples like Finn and then some people just won't ever change and vade and scam, rinse repeat until they either get tired of doing it or give up.


Just an idea i'll throw out there, if the scammer is believed to have truly changed make the person pay back double what they scammed. If they scam pixels/non IRL items get a mod or admin to value those items and make them pay it back double what it's worth.

 

Is your suggestion, not ban them perm from the start or have it more like, they can dispute pay people back and come back with a market ban or something?

 

I think most people come here for the market, so he would rather evade than pay someone back, receive a twc, and be banned from the market.

 

No support. People that scam don't deserve to be on the site at all.

 

There are people who after some time stop wanting to use the market and just want to be apart of the community. A perm ban is a punishment for scamming. A market ban + a DO NOT TRADE rank, is safety for the members. Like Deacon said, should stealing really be a life sentence? People can change and letting them back could let them be valuable contributers without risking the safety of members.

 

If you get prosecuted for stealing, once you are done and serve your time and stuff. you are allowed to go to stores.

what your saying is

He got prosecuted for stealing, we will let him back into society but we are not going to allow him to go into any store or purchase anything.

 

This really isn't that good of an analogy at all.

 

Analogies don't work. That is wrong for many reasons that I won't get into. Stick with the site.

 

Indeed, but some people eventually stop playing the game and have no interest in scamming or anything like that after a period of time.

As for the paying back double, I believe a ban, registered as a prior scammer, and being required to make other forms of retribution is more than enough. Ideally, they'd pay the person they scammed back, but requiring that would be very difficult, and most of them wouldn't have the money after their temporary ban (which I would imagine being around 3-12 months) ended.

Ban them, they post a dispute, the terms of their unbanning are negotiated, most of which will result in a market ban/twc/registration or listing under people who have previously scammed.... etc. I do think they should be banned for a certain amount of time, and then allowed to be eased back into the community with lots of restrictions, so they may serve the community by posting and contributing if they so desire.

I believe a clause could be inserted into ban evading that if you evade such it will be treated as ban evading.

\/. There's some people who have scammed before that truly have no interest in scamming and can provide valuable assistance.

Exactly. If you flag them as scammers, remove most of their chance to scam, and place a whole line of red tape around them so traders are aware of their past... then they have a chance to contribute back to the community, and maybe even earn the respect they lost back.

In an ideal scenario, they'd fix whatever damages they caused, and be pardoned of their crimes after a lengthy period of time, allowing them the ability to be an effective member.

 

i got twc for saying i used to scam on private servers... sorry for expressing what i did i guess? garuntee at least half sythe has scammed before on private servers or runescape.

 

If you're capable of scamming $20, you're capable to scam any amount and reducing the length of a ban for a little scam is just making more trouble.

 

Go steal from walmart, serve your time, and see if they ever let you back in their stores .

My sister stole from Khols, paid everything back, spent a night in jail, etc, and she's banned from ever entering one of their establishments again. If she does, she faces serious jail time.

It's warranted. Prove that you have no intent on scamming, and can conduct high value trades without doing so, and I'm sure you'd be able to get it removed with enough work.


EDIT:

Not necessarily. I stole money from my grandmother's purse in 5th grade. I've never stolen anything since I got caught and everything was settled. In fact, I've become even more honest because of how things went down, and because I developed a conscious realizing how my actions affected others.

Not every scammer will get this special treatment, it will be obvious if some of them would just continue to scam (Trent Thomas, Sigex, etc), but for a few people... it's more of a "You messed up, big time. We're willing to forgive you, but we won't forget. Come back, and try and fix what you did". Kinda thing.

 

Right, and allowing them back makes them not want to ban evade since they have a chance. Give them a chance to come back and they will be good. Take that away and they will be mad and fight. Syed is a great example of that. IMO.

 

No support at all. You're still having access to Sythe. Even with a TWC/Market ban, you can technically scam over MSN and Sythe PM. Keeping them here while they still owe people money is pointless. Scamming is scamming and no disregards should be made with this. On some issues, you can't bring real world laws onto a Runescape cheating forum. These are one of the issues, and I wouldn't want Sythe to be called the forum where scammers can run around unbanned.

(on iPod; sorry for mistakes)

 

Precisely. Not only that, but those people would not be able to resist their old accounts at times. Thereby making their current ips and such easier to track if they're up to no good.

That's why I'm saying the person should be flagged as a prior offender. Just like a child molester is listed, so would past scammers be.

And what level is the level of retribution? Is a year long ban worth $20? 3 months maybe? There's an extent to which a person should be banned depending on the severity of their crimes, plain and simple.

 

Having a rank that says "KNOWN SCAMMER. DO NOT TRADE.", in big red letters would eliminate PM scamming. MSN scamming can happen without a Sythe account, unless they ask for PM which would handle the issue. Plus, they would have to wait a long time to get their account back, meaning if they really wanted to scam they could just make a new account that would be trusted by the time their old not trusted account was unbanned.

 

I don't support, Scammers should be eliminated from this site

 

Read the entire thread and think about it before you snap to a judgement.

 

In staff members words: "Once a scammer, always a scammer."

Oh, wait...Finn is a scammer? Why is he an administrator? Demote him because he scams.

No, wait...Finn is god, so, he has an exception to that saying. /facepalm

I support OP.