[DENIED] Not agreeing on an amount of BTC should be considered poor trading practices

5 times a month at least I see this exact report

"I thought I was getting $320 in BTC, but its only $318"

@Pendulum: "Thats because you guys didnt agree on a rate (coinbase / blockchain.info ect.)"

"coinbase" is not a rate, $1000/btc is a rate. But its easier if people just confirm the amount of BTC before hand as well

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However that doesnt really solve the problem, rates change and 2 minutes later I could send coinbase $320 (and in the 2 minutes BTC coulda gone up or down). Note this is not the confirm time, but rather the time between agreeing and sending.

The solution is pretty simple, if you deal in dollars, you talk in dollars. If you deal in euros, you talk in euros. If you deal in BTC, you should talk BTC.

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Here's how a trade should work as an example.

seller: Hi! I'm selling 100m 07, want to buy?

buyer: Sure! I am paying .8/m

seller: sounds good, so 80$, blockchain rate?

buyer: Yes that is fine. so that is .022 BTC correct?

seller: I am happy

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This is an example of a good trade.

tl:dr. Confirming a $ amount and BTC rate (coinbase / blockchain) is not enough, shit still fluctuates. Please confirm amount of BTC

I think this is a good practice to implement, but not sure if it is TWC worthy. I think TWC is too harsh a punishment for this, nothing fishy.... Its just a proper way of doing things. Perhaps we can update a sticky? Lets see what people think

 

I think it comes down to the receiver of the BTC. If they're not stating what they expect to receive in BTC, then it's their lack of care that's making them lose out on a couple of bucks.

 

I don't think it should be poor trading practice, however I think that it should be the receivers fault for not entirely clarifying before going ahead with the trade.

 

Would this have its own sticky in trading sections? I think newcomers and members in general just do whatever works for them. I mean who even read the stickies?

It’s a good idea I just don’t see how this would be implemented..

 

Imo not an issue, by the time btc confirms it can rise or fall quite easily by the difference you're stating.

In my experience of dealing with dozens of trades daily, this isn't an issue at all.

5 times in the last month you've seen this issue raised, how many trades are done on sythe using BTC in a month?

How many times have reports not been raised, because the btc rate has been in the receivers favour? 50% of the time chances are the amount of btc sent is 1-2$ over than what they were expecting, just as many times as its 1-2$ under.

IMO not an issue, and its just more hoops for the market to have to jump through to avoid getting a TWC.

Edit: as much as i agree overall it would stop any types of disputes of this arising, that doesn't mean it should be mandatory. Users are free to agree a btc amount for their transaction but shouldn't be forced to. IMO doesn't stipulate poor trading practice to not confirm an amount of BTC.

 

I agree with what you are saying, but I think you misunderstand my point a bit.

Bitcoin is always going to fluctuate, there's no way to stop that.

What I am saying is that when you are sending 5$ to somebody, and it ends up 4$, they understandably feel frustrated.

If you say to someone, I am sending 0.0012 BTC(about 5$) and they receive 0.0012 BTC there is no way to argue that or for the buyer to be frustrated, shit happens.

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The use case is that lets say we agree on 5$ of BTC @ blockchain rate. I could send it right now, or I could send it in a minute or two which is a 20-30$ difference in rate (yes, up or down - but thats besides the point).

"Coinbase" or "Blockchain" are not rates.

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Sellers / Buyers should use either a $$$ price of bitcoin, or an ### of bitcoin. It literally just helps customers out.

That being said. I agree there is no great way to implement this and do no its TWC worthy, but wanted to put it out there. .Perhaps we could update the PM template?

 

Maybe stick it on a bitcoin sticky somewhere to reference where you should do this. This should be a recommended, but not required practice

 

The amount of times I have gotten "jipped" from sellers once they knew I had coinbase is way too high.

I agree the standard should be: I will be sending 0.022 BTC for X amount of gold or whatever service. I was left no choice but to use blockchain wallet after a while since it got ridiculous.

 

i understood that was the point you was making; my point is for those who deal with dozens of trades daily it would become cumbersome to add this extra detail in for every single trade that you conduct.

Simply because it just adds extra time to each trade, where it gives the other party time to come back saying im not sure how you worked out that amount of btc, how do i check it etc? Alot of people who accept bitcoin; sometimes its their first time and it just adds extra (sometimes unnecessary) confusion to the trade.

If someone asks me to agree a bitcoin amount, by all means i would - but to add this to every single trade by default otherwise to be said its "bad trading practice" is not a good idea imo.

 

An alternative option would be a note informing the other party that the dollar amount they'll end up receiving can change by the time they receive payment, so you don't have to take the time to confirm the amount every time. Stuff like Bitfinex's Tether rate differing from Coinbase's USD rate and the current high Bitcoin volatility can result in a significant difference in what the receiver gets.

 

Agreed. I'd suggest adding it to a sticky to reference and encourage it for routine bitcoin traders to prevent this. I believe traders often ask for your bitcoin wallet platform to figure if there is a gap regardless and settle it from there.

 

I think it is up to the buyer to get a confirmation of the btc amount, just like its up to the buyer to ask for a sythe confirmation. As long as the sender has proof of sending the agreed amount in USD on their side, then they are not to blame. Only a few cases end up in the RAS section, its not worth adding a new rule that could warrant a TWC or infraction IMO.
Fees are an issue though, which should be confirmed beforehand, just like paypal etc.

 

If the person receiving the bitcoin is that worried about losing a couple dollars in a trade then they should make sure they confirm the rate. Should not be required because for instance if I lose $10 on a $1000 trade it's just part of doing business. disagree

 

For a $1000 trade paypal fees would be $30+, so they should have no reason to complain

 

Yeah idk how people get this wrong

Also, most people use CB, so the rate is gaurenteed and of both users are on CB then there shouldn’t be much of an issue, so I would recommend users going that route.i

If not, what I have done is this...

**If the user is buying from me**

1. Ask how much in USD they want to spend / send or ask for a specific amount of BTC they want

2. Calculate the rate ( so 0.004629 for $100 for example ) based on rather they want a specific amount or want to spend a specification amount of USD

3. User agrees on rate, I copy that BTC amount, and send the user that amount after they send payment.

It’s pretty simple and this isn’t really an issue with CB users like I stated above.


Good point to bring up so I support this suggestion.


Plus, some exchanges have premiums, so I actaully tell users I’m using Bitmex or CB Pro prices, since there is a lot of volume on both of those exchanges.


TLDR: Have users agree prior on a very specific number like 0.03724 BTC, not “I’ll send you $100 in BTC”.

 

Yes exactly. I think that for all sales, users must agree on an AMOUNT of BTC. If they don’t agree on an amount, and the user send $100 and it ends up being $97. Yeah that sucks, but that’s how the game works.

I think that if most users were just on Coinbase, this problem would nearly disappear because there would be 0 excuse for someone to short you on CB since the rates are gaurnetted to some extent.

For example, on CB, if I send you $5 in BTC, it will be $5 in BTC. Sure, hours later it will show up as less, but when you receive the $5 the rate doesn’t change.

CB internally transfers coins and locks in a rate of transfer for the send and receiving party, plus there is no Tx fee, so it’s even better.

Not sure how we would enforce this thiugh. Maybe we would have to wait until someone is reported?

 

no support, IMO it should be the sellers responsibility to inquire about the amount of BTC that they're receiving or what rate to use. That would be aids for me to go through that whole process with every single person I buy gold off, especially if I'm on mobile.

 

From a professional stand point, I see nothing wrong with forcing users to state the currency and amount they expect.

If you want to deal BTC, deal BTC.
Dollars, dollars.

Simple and how it should be done.

 

From a professional stand point, I see nothing wrong with forcing users to state the currency and amount they expect.

If you want to deal BTC, deal BTC.
Dollars, dollars.

Simple and how it should be done.