Closing again

x339 · Jul 18, 2012

First you say that people are only against it because someone said no at some point. This could be true for some people it most certainly isn't for everyone. Second you say that since some large companies use it, it must be good. That is a logical fallacy and thus pointless and useless. Third you finally give a pro of the system, that it keeps things organized and professional. This however is subjective and I would argue that people can be plenty professional and organized using our current vouch thread format. Thus I would have to say that this valid point is null as our current system already offers that, although perhaps to a lesser extent depending on your opinion of the matter. Fourth, you say that people think our system works. Every system works to an extent and ours works fairly well after you get to know it. Scammers run rampant less because of our system and more because they know ways to game the system in their favor. Ebay owns Paypal. They can keep people safe and deal with chargebacks and stuff because they have complete control over Paypal. We don't. If someone charges back we can't do a thing. We can only offer advice. No feedback system is going to change that. And finally you put two more sentences about nothing related.

So in conclusion you have offered only one (perhaps two if you count them separately) pros of a feedback system. I thought of a whole lot more right off the top of my head so you haven't tried very hard to sell your idea. My thought is that this is because you expect everyone to agree with you and your comments to Govind back this idea up quite a bit. Secondly you also offered none of the cons of a feedback system, which there are quite a few. Not showing both sides of an issue is wrong. Address both sides so we can make an informed decision. And finally you have constantly and repeatedly lobbed attacks at anyone who has disagreed with you, most recently with Govind.

I'm tired of the disrespect, stubbornness, and rampant egotism that you have displayed. Grow up and listen to what I've been saying. Until then I'm done with this.

Sigh, when you close the thread I have no way to defend myself, please stop doing that. The feedback portion was literally 1/6th of the thread, closing it was unnecessary.

First off, I have not "attacked" anyone through out any of my threads. I have defended my points, and I am fighting for what I am saying. Maybe my comment to Govind was a little more personal, but that's the least of my concerns when I am dealing with him. He refuses to listen to what I have to say, and when I refute his points he simply ignores them until the point where he has to ignore me completely because he has nothing else to say. I'd also like to share part of a recent PM conversation I had with Govind:

Govind said:
Recreation of material that has been closed or deleted is against the rules.

I assure you it isn't a coincidence that your feedback thread has been locked several times. It is just an attempt at misleading people into anti-staff sentiment by taking advantage of how little people know about the site, as I've already stated.

By 'encouraged', well, I'd elaborate, but then that would be admitting that I know more than I should.

Govind said:
I know you're being encouraged to post these threads. Kindly stop.

That is extremely insulting. I have been doing all that I have been doing to try and help sythe, and I am being constantly berated by almost every single staff member and made out to be like a bad guy. I have not personally attacked anyone, and yet still everyone considers me to just be bashing the staff. Please show me one example in which I blatantly personally attacked a staff member, you will find none, whilst I have been told I am "Leading an anti-staff sentiment", and that I have "other motives", and that I don't listen to anyone, and that I have been attacking everyone, and the list goes on and on. I am sorry if my intensity and forwardness makes anyone upset, but I hardly say I've deserved the constant thread closing and disrespect that has been being hurled at me since I've started all of this.

I am doing my best to do all of this, and I am sorry if my threads aren't perfectly structured, or all of my methods aren't perfect in how I go about this, or if I am not approaching things the correct way, but the fact of the matter is, I am pretty much in this alone. I do have support from a great many people, but no one has truly stepped up to the plate by my side. I do not have a problem with this, but please don't handicap me by constantly closing my threads and attacking me as "the bad guy" here, because the fact of that matter is, there should be no bad guy at all. I am trying to help sythe, just as I hope everyone else involved should.

Now to my suggestion, please re-open my thread, and please take me seriously instead of just treating me as a moron who just wants to bash all of the staff.

Silent Fang · Jul 18, 2012

we all understand you are trying to help, but seriously its getting annoying. you wont listen to a thing anyone else says and it just fuels your fire. these debates arnt even worth it anymore.

x339 · Jul 18, 2012

Silent Fang said:
we all understand you are trying to help, but seriously its getting annoying. you wont listen to a thing anyone else says and it just fuels your fire. these debates arnt even worth it anymore.

And that's the kind of thing that keeps me going. People are getting bored of the e-drama and want to move on to something else. "They arnt worth it anymore" is just proof of the fact that most people just want the edrama. I am fighting for the same points as I was in the beginning, I don't see what's changed other than the fact that people want to post on something else. I am doing what I am doing to help sythe, not to feed everyone their weekly dosage of e-drama.

Also this "you're not listening" excuse is getting tiresome. I have listened to every single post, and I have defended what I said against them, that doesn't mean I am not listening. Almost everyone I have talked to that disagrees with me simply has one or two major points, and when I refute them, they say I don't listen. It's the same on both sides of the coin. You're not listening to me either. So please stop using that as an excuse to get me to stop.

That's what's fueling the fire.

Silent Fang · Jul 18, 2012

I have read every single post you have made and im on both sides, neither you nor the 2nd party will comprimise. therefore getting you pissed up adding fuel to it. Its turned into an e-drama because all the mods are getting annoyed as well as the people you try and argue with to no end. There is room for comprimise but spending countless hours arguing this will not get you anywhere. Bring in your main points, back them up, if a mod shoots them down then accept it. If you feel that point was too strong to be shot down find more evidence to back it up but if that fails ultimately you just need to let it go.

x339 · Jul 18, 2012

Silent Fang said:
I have read every single post you have made and im on both sides, neither you nor the 2nd party will comprimise. therefore getting you pissed up adding fuel to it. Its turned into an e-drama because all the mods are getting annoyed as well as the people you try and argue with to no end. There is room for comprimise but spending countless hours arguing this will not get you anywhere. Bring in your main points, back them up, if a mod shoots them down then accept it. If you feel that point was too strong to be shot down find more evidence to back it up but if that fails ultimately you just need to let it go.

The mod's are not almighty, they can be wrong just as I can be wrong, it doesn't mean I should bend over and take whatever they say in the ass. If I feel they are wrong, I will defend myself. It's that kind of conformity that causes things to stay the way they are. If you just sit there and accept everything the staff says for the end-all statement, then neither you, the community, nor the staff will benefit.

Note this is not a personal attack against any of the staff, it's just what happens, and I am pointing it out. The same can be seen in other aspects of life as well. For example everyone says apple products are the best, and if you disagree with them, you are instantly shot down. It's a principle of life, so don't misconstrue it as an attack on anyone, which would be a point to attack me from.

Emperor Nero · Jul 18, 2012

I support most of the suggestions. We need the vB update and we need to build a better community, but I have to say that this fight is an impossible one. Sythe has never been a democracy and never will be and the best we can do is post opinions and go about our lives. Arguing further is just perpetuation of a moot subject and will begin to annoy people and turn everyone against you. Continuation of the fight is useless as the verdict has already been handed down.

JamRsPins · Jul 18, 2012

Yeah, this is getting old. >_< Every active member has read your suggestions 50x over now, if it didn't go anywhere the first time, consistently spamming the forum won't help, in my opinion. They did say they were going to consider some of your suggestions though, like VB4? Don't think you're helping the forum at all with this drama.

Edit: you're*

x339 · Jul 18, 2012

I would also like to point out that Verts and I began to see eye to eye in my last thread, which shows that when both sides are willing to work towards things, it's not impossible. She even expressed some concerns of her own. Unfortunately the thread was abruptly ended when Govind decided to just close the thread instead of further discussing the valid points myself and others brought up.

x339 · Jul 18, 2012

JamRsPins said:
Yeah, this is getting old. >_< Every active member has read your suggestions 50x over now, if it didn't go anywhere the first time, consistently spamming the forum won't help, in my opinion. They did say they were going to consider some of your suggestions though, like VB4? Don't think you're helping the forum at all with this drama.

Edit: you're*

Just dropping it when people get bored of it is helping a hell of a lot less then continuing.

SuF · Jul 19, 2012

Your first thread:

Nick: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11133633&postcount=7
Verts: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11134107&postcount=8
Verts: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11134367&postcount=10

Nick's post was respectful and he agreed with some things and disagreed with others. He offered feedback and provided an example.

Verts provided further examples and agreed with Nick.

Verts offered an alternative opinion to the way that you see things (or that TV thinks you see things).

x339: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11134624&postcount=12

Begins with:

Sigh... This is what I expected to come of this..

You expected negative results so you found them.

Continues:

Yes admins do their job, yes they don't have to have a public face, but it doesn't mean that they shouldn't.

None of the above posts suggested that admins shouldn't have a public face.

Verts:

We all communicate actively with both upper and lower staff, as well as posting a reasonable amount. Just because we seem to be lacking a 'public face', it doesn't mean we're doing nothing.

x339:

I am sure there are plenty of people who can do the job, and I am sure there are plenty of people who would do the job, and actually act like part of the site too.

Most likely true but has been discussed at length before (trust, ect).

Blatant attack on the admins. Feedback is fine, but being disrespectful isn't.

x339:

You guys are treating it like you're the owner of a restaurant. You think that as long as you keep it running, then who cares about going in and associating with you're crew or customers.

First, you are falsely stating that the admins do not care about enhancing the site. This is an attack on them. Secondly this had been handled by both Nick and Verts.

Nick:

While an idea may seem fresh from new users, the administration has considered and implemented/attempted to implement many of the items on the DNS list. They simply don't work out well in the long run based on past experience and practicability. ... I make it a point to read every post in the feedback forum but replying to all of them isn't reasonable.

Verts:

I also spend a decent amount of time each day checking through the staff lounge and feedback forums. ... For example, myself and Karl spent 2-3 hours of non-stop work to recreate the games section. Most administrators had a decent amount of input on the way this new section would run and it was agreed upon by all of the staff.

We all communicate actively with both upper and lower staff, as well as posting a reasonable amount.

x339:

You should be doing your job by running it, but you should be part of the community too, and if you can't, then maybe you shouldn't be an admin. If you don't have time for the community, or if you don't have interest in the community, then maybe you should step down.

1) Provides no justification for why admins need to be active in the community
2) Hinting at the fact the admins do not deserve their positions (an attack)
3) Ignoring both Verts and Nick when they tell you that the admins are much more active than they seem
4) Using your false information to tell the admins to step down (another attack)

x339:

This can be proven wrong by simply looking at the admins themselves. How long has Verts been here? How long has FireZ been here? How long has Matthew been here? How long has Sythe been the owner? How long has Govind been here? How long has Nick been here? The fact is that although you may have taken breaks from time to time, you're all still here. People want to stay with the site. Sure people leave as time goes on, but we can't expect to keep everyone, and frankly plenty of people still try to stick around, but when things get stale, they have no reason to. There will always be people trying to stick around, and without change, they will have no reason to. Maybe it will turn some people off, but it's better then leaving everyone else behind

You also know how many admins are now gone? Steph. Daily. Sin. Cheater. You know how many mods are gone? I'm not even going to both. Some people go and some people stay. Saying you can keep everyone is just plain wrong. Nick has a point and you also have a point. You are both semi-right.

I know everyone on this site hates to hear any kind of negative feedback, but I wish that would change. Sure we can all post saying how awesome everyone is, but what is that really going to accomplish? I hope that you all can see that I obviously care about the site and want to help it grow, otherwise I wouldn't be doing this. I have no interest in hurting anyone's feelings, or putting people down, I just want to do whatever I can as a regular member with only the power to post, to help Sythe. So please before you jump on the "Omg negative feedback you're wrong I hate you" bandwagon, think about it, and try to be constructive for the benefit of Sythe.

Playing the victim card. Neither Verts nor Nick were unhappy about your feedback. They didn't completely agree with you and listen to you so you suddenly decided that they hate you and are bashing you. You are utterly wrong. Then you go ahead and start bashing the admins some more:

So please before you jump on the "Omg negative feedback you're wrong I hate you" bandwagon, think about it, and try to be constructive for the benefit of Sythe.

Verts: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11136157&postcount=14

She tells people to not be afraid of feedback and to post it.

Verts: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11136282&postcount=16

Asks for clear suggestions on what we can do to improve the site.

x339: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11136673&postcount=23 (in repsonce to Verts)

I personally have made quite a few suggestion threads that have gained support, people said yes that's good, and then they just fell to the wayside because no one past globals really even pay attention to it.

Bashing the admins some more (saying that none of your suggestions have gone anywhere). This is clearly not true as the Other Games section was changed and Verts contributed to that quite a bit and actually implemented the changes.

Rest of it isn't that bad just some suggestions (all of which could get fleshed out some more and posted as a thread in the suggestions forum where they are clearly explained).

Nick: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11136844&postcount=24

1) Asks for the suggestions you have made that got nowhere.
2) Gives a different opinion on a suggestion.
3) Asks for clarification
4) Non-tech admins tries to make a comment about tech stuff. The bit about chat boxes is very true and he did make valid points (safety needs to be our top priority)
5) vB4. Its Richards ball game so who cares. Nick also mentioned security again.

x339: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11136948&postcount=26

Victim card.

What you're doing is just trying to attack me with the most specific examples you can think of and pointing out flaws in each of those specific things.

Nick was actually simply providing another viewpoint in a respectful way about you suggested. Flaws are important to point out. You wouldn't want to drive a car that randomly won't stop speeding up, would you?

It doesn't take away from the main point I am trying to bring up: Admin's simply aren't active enough. Now you can continue to try and telling me I am "wrong" in my feelings and opinions, but what is that going to accomplish.

An admin is being active and engaging you and you fall back to they aren't active enough? He also never once said you were wrong. He was simply giving a different view of what you suggested (and asking for clarification and links so he could look into it more).

It's another reason the only kind of feedback on this site is "You're all so awesome please don't stop being so awesome", because people act as you are when someone says something negative.

Victim card.

Nick: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11137025&postcount=27

I'm not trying to "attack" you but simply have a discussion.

As I said:

You've brought up the idea of large threads gaining support and not being approved or given an explanation at least three times in a couple threads. We can't improve unless you actually share your ideas or link to examples.

Actively trying to learn what popular suggestions have been ignored, most likely to look at them and perhaps see if they are viable and try to get them done.

x339: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11137080&postcount=28

You're slowly dragging me away from my point to try and find something I am wrong at so you can be like "Oh he is wrong about everything now".

Bashing Nick again by very wrongly accusing him of having bad motives.

Verts: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11137193&postcount=30

Explains the fact that suggestions are handled privately and could still be alive.

x339: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11137243&postcount=31

Then that brings us back to the transparency issue, how is anyone supposed to have any idea that is going on?

I don't think it was even mentioned as on topic in that thread, even though I agree to an extent. Correct me if I'm wrong but if you never specifically mentioned it, other than Grave posting (which was slightly off the topic) how are you going back to it?

Verts: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11137272&postcount=32

The only admin post in the thread that could be in anyway taken as a slight attack.

x339: http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=11137280&postcount=33

Childish victim card.

All of your other threads are exactly this and I'm going to continue locking them until they are not.