[APPROVED/REVIEW] Change to Name Sales

Hola c:

Name Sales is a mess and always has been. Currently, some 'trusted' name sellers abuse the responsibility of snipes in order to get free names for themselves. Examples include, but not limited to: Khai, Bonesack, Cryax, Blindcubefreak, Jane, Ryan, BMT subway (he's reformed tho btw)

What does this mean? (Excuse the names, I couldn't think of anything but this suggestion is very much serious)

Scenario 1:


Jimmy comes to NameSeller69, trying to sell his RSN 'HottieAlice'. NameSeller69 agrees to purchase it, and gives account details of a level 3 to Jimmy and tells Jimmy to move the name to the level 3 for him. Jimmy takes responsibility for snipes, despite being new to the market under pressure from NameSeller69's bullying, moves the name, and wow it gets sniped.

Little does Jimmy know, NameSeller69 took the name for himself, or asked a friend to, or whatever it may be on another account. Jimmy is scammed out of his cool RSN, and NameSeller69 has a name that he did not pay for, and scammed from another user.

Jimmy can't do shit. Jagex don't give names back anymore. He can't prove a thing. NameSeller69 gets away with it.


Scenario 2:

ThiccLatina420 contacts NameSeller69 and asks to buy a name. She really likes his name 'FaxMachine', and they agree on a sale price of 50m. She pays the 50m, and is given the account details. She's told that she is to transfer the name herself at her own responsibility. Trusting in the vouches of the name trader she's dealing with, she believes him that she'll be fine, and nobody is going to be botting the name, or watching it.
Gee wiz it gets sniped 15 minutes after she purchases it. She messages the name trader, expressing her frustration. NameSeller69 nabbed it right as she went to move it. NameSeller69 has 50m and his name back, on another account unknown to ThiccLatina420.

She can't do shit, NameSeller69 will promise to try recover the name, but Jagex don't do that anymore, and he won't do it anyways to risk getting his name deleted. Another scam.


My suggestion:

If you have a name store (buying and selling) you MUST move all names you're trading with full responsibility for snipes. If you do not feel confident enough to do so, outsource the job to somebody who is (with the consent of your customer).


Why?


This will completely eradicate users trying to scam using these methods. I can't really think of another way to lose money, other than a straight up scam (taking the gold and blocking the user on skype/discord etc).

Going to tag some users that I feel can contribute to this.

@Alice @Void @Nate @Zero @Majora

Thank you for reading.

 

@StitchLip @Niki @sehun @Lozz @zwei siegen

Will reserve this post for later.

 

great idea

 

Good idea, unless it's been like this before and rules have been changed and I don't know about it, it shoulda been like this from the beginning.

Online sales have become such a big thing that it has become pretty much a business itself. The seller is basically a shop keeper at this point and the person buying is a customer. In this sense, the customer should always receive what he/she paid for, and if not they should receive a full refund.

 

Good suggestion but if anyone has the rsn 'HottieAlice' please dm me

 

Not matter what’s used can’t the buyer of the name snipe the name and seller be out of a name? Not sure how things work.

 

Sadly it was sniped by NameSeller69. Paying lots for it back though

Not really possible.

If I bought a book off Amazon and didn't receive it, I'd absolutely request my money back. This isn't much different, you're right.

:3

 

buyer goes first or mm is used

 

What's the poison dart in the raisin tart in this suggestion? Lets see...

You sell names as well and if I recall u offer a no-sniping guarantee service which suggests you have a way to move names that ur competition does not.

Now lets review this situation:

OP has a way to evidently move names better than his competition, OP suggests to force all his competition & himself to be responsible for all name snipes by having a store. However OP again moves names without sniping already which means that this suggestion massively benefits OP as it screws over OP's fellow competition every time they get a name sniped. While OP sits gleefully watching all his competition get fucked over while he safely moves names.

OP also will see vastly increased income due to him having an advantage over other name sellers so he can increase the price & make more income off his no-name sniping guarantee service.

Took me a while to see where the manipulation was but I got there.

I don't trust OP as far as I can throw him when it comes to name sales and that market is a shithole its just who can stab the other in the back with evidence on this forum.

Need I say more?

No support.

 

You missed the part where I barely engage in name sales anymore and I've declined countless trades. I'm only really here to get my friends some names for personal use now, not profit. I've never had any competition and I have no reason to force people out, least of all now. I'm not finished here though until I've made sure the market is safer for those that do still choose to engage in it.

Ad hominem - Wikipedia btw

 

Hey, Thanks for the tag.

I like the direction and objective of your suggestion in trying to make things better for the names market, but I'm not so sure if it's viable or makes sense. I don't want to sound bias because as most know; I don't take responsibility for name transfers for the names that I sell. Has that been a problem? Not for me it hasn't. I can confidently say that through the entirety of time that I have been on here since I was last pardoned (nearly a year) not even 1 name that I sold was sniped from my buyers and this includes multiple names sold for over $500 in value. Also, Forgive me as this post might be longer than I had planned, but ill proceed to speak and brainstorm my thoughts about this. As ridiculous as it sounds I actually sit around thinking pretty deeply about this to myself on a regular basis.

The sales I do are done the way that I have always done them, Old school, if you want to call it that. I always recommend methods on how to transfer, I focus largely on education, and even give out a step by step guide to my customers on how to safely move their names. In fact, I've regularly referred some customers to speak with some of you guys (namely @Niki , @Milotic) who have been offering the services in exchange for payment for those who still aren't comfortable even after I spend time to teach them out.

I take a lot of pride in trading this way because as a seller who's able to say such a thing it shows that I have the best interest in my clients by:

* Only trading and sharing names lists with those deemed as "trustworthy"
* Spending quality time with each and every buyer in teaching out and providing knowledge on how to move names properly on their own.
* It helps establish my reputation when I can say that my customers are able to buy goods from me knowing that they won't be put into a difficult or risky situation when transferring their names.

Now onto some more detail or technicalities

Your suggestion makes sense, but here is where I think it goes wrong:

With your suggested rule in place: New users will be encouraged to start name transferring services to earn profits of their own based on the following.

Reason 1. Who is granted immunity if something goes wrong?

a. The Service Provider?

a. If this is the case, there will be less, but more confident service providers.
b. Service providers will be challenged more, because the immunity of the seller opens up a window of opportunity to encourage sellers to intervene with name transfers and having the blame, cost, and responsibility rest on those who are providing service. This will in turn result in a much more frustrated and conflict ridden market.

Ultimately, it doesn't make sense for the service provider to take responsibility because they face the risk to lose out on much more than they what they can make. @Milotic , maybe you can chime in a little more about what happens if a name transfer goes wrong. I'm not too keen on how it works myself tbh.

It's just my opinion but: It doesn't make sense that the service provider takes responsibility for transferring someone else's name because it won't make sense to risk losing way more than you could possibly earn.

b. The Seller of the name?

a. now there will be a surplus of service providers, some seasoned and many amateur, some probably with hardly a clue even what they're doing.
b. A window of opportunity is opened for the service provider to make the decision if they want to secretly snipe the name requested to be transferred for themselves or not.

c. The buyer of the name? (How it is now)

a. the same people as current would be providing services for this
b. The buyer must choose a service provider which they feel most comfortable with based on their portfolio of vouches and reputation. (Just like selecting a middle man when trading gold or accounts)
c. If something goes wrong the buyer takes responsibility for not selecting someone reputable or talented enough to transfer their name, or they take responsibility for failing to transfer a name successfully on their own.

Essentially: you take responsibilities for your own actions or negligence.

Reason 2: The introduction of multiple parties.

This change will introduce more people to know that a name will "move". I'm a firm believer that the more people involved in a name purchase = worse. If the fewest amount of people are involved with these transactions then there are less fingers to point when things go wrong.

I think that at the end of the day, name sales should be treated similar to account sales as they have been. You should only purchase from those who have the reputation to be trusted in the long run. Transfer services should be optional as they are. With the right knowledge, timing and preparation anyone should be able to transfer a name successfully on their own. I'm sure @Milotic you can chime in on this given the success rate that you have with your transfer services (at least from what I've heard).

Maybe a suggestion should be made on how transfer services operate and how they can be reinforced to work more fluently and supportive with the standard structure of selling names. I don't want anyone to take me the wrong way here, because I am a fan of the transfer services that people are offering, I just don't think that they should be an obligation on every sale. As a regular name seller I can openly admit that I lack experience with transferring names, simply because I just don't do it often or at all. If this rule were to come into play I would be one who depends on service providers to transfer names for every customer. I can't say that I feel good about putting my reputation into the hands of someone else, especially every single time I sell a name.

Just my 2 cents.
;cant even TLDR this one. Sorry.

 

I appreciate your in depth response. The idea here is not to force people into using transfer services, for anybody's benefit. It is simply to stop people scamming newcomers that place their trust in the vouches of users in the market. Those two scenarios happen very often, and it's almost impossible to prove. By forcing a name vendor into being responsible for names moving in their trades, these scams simply cannot happen.

I agree with you that you should take responsibility for your own negligence/actions, but newcomers simply don't realise that these scams are going on. If you were planning to carry out scenario 1/2, you wouldn't even bring up the possibility of the name being sniped, or suggest that anybody but your customer carry out the transfer. Why? They want to scam the name. Newcomers simply don't know better, and I'm not saying we should pander to idiots, I'm against that of course, but this is just a tough market and it needs different regulation to remove scammers. This is a way I thought of that can remove these scams entirely.

Yes the more parties involved, the riskier a transfer is. This isn't an issue when names are transferred correctly though, as they should be. I mean, you're a name seller. It should follow that you know how to, and are willing to transfer names for your buyers. Transfer services aren't required if the name vendor does it for their customer themselves. I certainly don't want to be barraged with messages asking me to move 'jimbob555' for anybody lol

 

I don't want to go too far off on a tangent but I read something once that typically applies to criminal behaviour, however I feel applies here very well so I wanted to share it.

This theory states that out of a population of people (Sythe.org for example), 10% of the entire population will ALWAYS do what they can to scam someone. Another 10% will NEVER scam anyone under any circumstances. And then we're left with the 80% mass majority. This 80% majority of people will typically always appear to be well and good from the outside looking in, some may trust them very well, but when opportunity comes knocking, theyre tempted by it. In the names market, and as bad as it sounds, ALOT of our active members will jump at opportunity as soon as its handed to them, especially when it's known they can get away with it. With this suggestion, no matter how its structured i think it opens up an extra window compared to how things are now.

This theory explains a little more as to why I think the suggestion will be a challenge.

 

That theory seems reasonable to me. I'm sure the numbers aren't exact, but I see what it's saying. I just don't understand why this makes the suggestion any less viable. Surely having a system in place to ensure that scamming can't take place will make the market less attractive to that evil 10%? As for the 80%, they have no way to get away with it, so they can't scam either.

Btw if you have a link to that paper I'd like to read it just out of curiosity

 

I wish i could have alluded to it with a legitimate reference.. If i stumble across it I'll let you know someday though.

 

wouldn't this allow you to snipe more names?

who am I kidding, it's theoretically making more money for you while furthering the gap between a regular Sythe user who occasionally sells a name and those whos main focus is name selling.

We are strong believers in a free market and we seldom have problems with name sales.
As well as @Majora , I don't think I ever had problems selling names and need to pay someone to swap for a customer.

 

Hopefully your question isn't directed at me. I'll assume you mean in general and ask you how would this suggestion, if it were put in place, allow MORE name snipes happen?

Snipes aren't the problem. SCAMS are.

Seldom have a problem with name sales? x hecking D

Maybe snipes aren't a problem if you're selling crappy names that nobody wants to have. Also, you lost two rare names yourself when trying to sell them, so you can't really say snipes haven't been a problem for you.

I don't really trade names anymore, this isn't for my own benefit. It's to prevent retards getting scammed by other retards abusing their trust.

 

Don't lie to everyone.
We seldom have issues with name sales on the forums. once in ever 3 months or so is actually quite sparse.

Do we need a section reform and clarified rules, yes. It's a very outdated section that's more 'lax' than most.

But I do not support an idea that is 100% for your personal gain. Buying a name comes with risks, as you continue selling names, you should have a fairly good risk assessment on how things work. Most well-dignified name sellers would take responsibility regardless. Like I said before, requiring to use a xfer service because you are not confident on taking the bullet for a possible snipe isn't a free market or helping it at all.

Also, if you want beef for some reason, keep looking because I don't have time for it. If you have a guilty conscience for some reason, you should probably reflect on that.

 

You're missing the point. If a few of us didn't go out of our way to report the scammers, the problem would be far bigger than it currently is. I'm trying to prevent SCAMS.

Currently, there are no name sellers offering full responsibility for snipes. Not one. Why do you you think that is? Are you so naive that you think they're scared of losing their names when selling them?

Also, you're failing to read that I'm no where near as active in name sales as I once was, for multiple reasons. This isn't for myself, or anybody else to gain from.

https://puu.sh/ze3h2.jpg I don't know how you can say this isn't a problem lol

You agree with me though that clarified rules or section reform is needed. What do you suggest?

 

After reading this thread and posts more in depth, I have to abstain here.

While I see the good deed behind the suggestion, I feel like it won't totally clean and help the RuneScape names market. If such idea would see the day, (I want to say a lot but there won't be that much persons because of the rare names market's situation), some people will start themselves a business and focus on the name transfer services and I can already foresee the mess this will create because of some lack of experience. Like @Majora stated, even some regular name sellers don't provide name transfer services with snipe responsibility because of how risky it may be, under some circumstances, and I won't lie, I am a part of them.

Currently, most of the regular name sellers do what you have stated here:

We all have been a witness of what we can call a monopoly of the market because we basically already, as regular name sellers, all refer newcomers/buyers/sellers to you and Alice because of the experience that you guys have in providing such name transfer services. Don't get me wrong here, I am not complaining on how both of you have the only name transfer services business. My view is that, you both have done your homeworks and are now collecting the results.

I am abstaining from this suggestion because from my past experience, I have offered my customers to either:

• Transfer the name they have bought after a thorough explanation of my terms which basically state that I can't be responsible if a snipe were to happen.

Or

• Offer them to contact someone who provides name transfer services by covering snipes but with a charged fee.

After almost a year now, I would say that 50% of the customers tend to go with option #1 and the other 50% will go with option #2.

Yes, there have been some snipes with option #1 but again, 75%, if not more of the transfers end up being a success so I don't see a screaming need of a drastical change. Naturally, it goes without saying that people who provide transfer services do them flawlessly but my point here is that the RuneScape rare names enthusiasts don't seem to choose an option over another.

Tl;dr: The RuneScape rare names market has always been a messy and risky business and my honest opinion is that it will always be the same. The only way we could help it would be by informing thoroughly people who want to be a part of it on how dangerous it could be because sometimes, I feel like they, and most importantly, we, tend to forget it.