Israel pounds Gaza for a third consecutive day - 29 Dec 08

Israeli jets are again bombing targets in the Gaza Strip. The air assualt is now into a third day. Warships have also been involved in the attacks, shelling the area around Gaza's port.

The death toll in Gaza has risen to 318. A UN agency says at least 51 of those victims were civilians.

Despite the onslaught, the Palestinian resistance continues. Rockets fired from Gaza have killed one person and injured seven in the city of Ashkelon.

alll from al jazeera...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNnfU9F3MGg

 

when we discussed several days ago, and we concluded that a thread about the israeli-palestinian conflict needs to be made, this wasnt what i was hoping for- the thread doesnt offer questions or anything to discuss, it doesnt look like it can develop much constructive criticizm, but the thread was necessary.

lately i've been keeping track on both the Israeli news channels, Al-Jazeera (in english), and some USA news channels, there's alot of Bias in Al-Jazeera, but that's understandable.

you may also want to add that a recent UN report also identified (so far) around 220 of the casualties as members of the hamas, and as you mentioned also identified around 51 (so far) women and children


if you ask for my opinion about the Millitary operation i think it was long overdue- towns in Israel were being bombarded for the past 13 days, since the Cease-fire was officially ended by the hamas (there were also rockets fired during the ceasefire)


it sucks that large amounts of civillians die in these airstrikes, but in an area as densely populated as Gaza it's unavoidable :\

by the way- do you live in the west bank or in Gaza? i havent recieved an answer from you about that yet, im still wondering about it

 

I am Palestinian,i live in Jerusalem,and i think both sides are stupid,why?
Because Hamas made a mistake,they hit rockets for 8 years on Kiryat Shmoneh or wherever they did,but no casualties nearly,but Israelis decided to do a counter-terrorist attack,and look how it ended up,more than 380 dead and over 1000 injuries,now,Israelis claim that Hamas is a terrorist group because they stood against them,so if it was REALLY a terrorist group as they claim,why did they do a collateral damage?why did they attack civilian sites?

 

both sides are to blame in this conflict, but the recent events are not Israel fault,
Hamas is a terrorist group, there can be no debating about it.

why is there collateral damage in Gaza? firstly, it is a dense area, it is extremely difficult to attack millitary targets without hitting people around it, who might be civillian

also, the Hamas use places like Mosques to store their rockets (i saw a video of a mosque being air-bombed, taken from an airplane point of view, after it was hit, it had like 4 secondary explosions, showing there was a large stockpile of rockets inside it) the Hamas also launches rockets from residential buildings, plenty of recorded evidence for that as well

the targets for the attack were picked carefully for several months, the aim is definetly to hit the Hamas, but civillians get killed in the process, given the circumstances of the conflict- mind you, after all of these difficult circumstances, the OVERWHELMING number of dead bodies identified in Gaza are those of hamas members in uniform (which is a legitimate millitary target and doesnt violate any international law about "war crimes" )


on a side note- i dont believe any kind of peace could be made with an organisation like the Hamas, it's an organisation who'se charter calls for our destruction, i have an exact quote - "Israel will exist and continue to exist untill Islam will obliterate it, just like it obliterated those before it"

not only it calls for our destruction, it does also does so from religious reasons, my experience teaches me me that there can be no debating with a Nationalist Religious fundamentalist, the Hamas is not any different.

peace with the palestinians is plausible to me, providing the right Palestinian leadership, but this thread is not the place to speak of it as it is about the attacks in Gaza

 

btw the casualties are now 400 ....it's a crime against humanity ... i have one question for how many Israelis were injured with the rockets the hamas launched ?

 

since the millitary operation in Gaza began, 3 israelis were killed, and dozens were injured, as for how many israelis died since the Hamas started launching rockets ( 8 years ago ) i'll try getting my hands on these details.

however, a body count is NOT a valid way to determine who is right and who is wrong.

you call the millitary operation a crime against humanity?

the REAL crime against humanity is when a state allows a quarter million of it's citizens (now half a million) under a constant, never-ending threat of rockets, it really doesnt matter that the Hamas makes crappy rockets, and that our population is well-practicted in running into their shelters (hence the low israeli casualties)

the REAL crime against humanity is hiding your munitions inside mosques, and then running to the world media crying when these stashes get destroyed.

also, show me where does it say in your "war crimes" manual that retaliating to a barrage of rockets is a crime?

the only reason the civillian casualties at the Palestinian side are so high is because the hamas (which the palestinians voted) which even you admitted in previous posts to be criminals, shelters itself behind it's own popu;ation, if you even THINK of denying this i have plenty of videos and images to back up this claim, dont try me.

the millitary operation has to keep going untill the Hamas learns to fear launching it's rockets against israel because of the expected israeli retaliation

By the way - each rocket the Hamas launches is an explicit crime against humanity because it is directed intentionally at a civillian population, yet the world stood by for 8 years since they started launching it and gave nearly no condemnation to these vile atrocities.

 

Ok... there is really not much to discuss.

 

u said it yourself 3 were killed.... 3 israeli-400 Palestinian.. ofcourse we are the bad guys.. and since 8 years u will find maybe maybe 100 israeli killed and 10,000 palestinain were killed soo please don't search becasue u will end up with failing to prove you point... and thank you for proving my point of view... 3-400 and 1000 injured..

 

as i said earlier, a point of view that says "higher body count determines who's right and who's wrong" is fallacious

the side that starts the war, and supports the total genocide of the other side (kindly read the hamas charter) is the side to be put to blame

the fact that the said side has junk weapons doesnt mean they're righteous, take into consideration that if the equation was reversed and the Hamas was more powerful, an organised genocide would take place against the israelis, and dont deny it


EDIT- following your body count theory, if, since january, over 14,000 palestinians from gaza were treated by israel in israeli hospitals and israeli doctors, what does it say about the Zionist Villains?

 

400 dead and 2000 injured in 5 days who by the way are mostly civilians and 30% are children..
and then infront of world media you act in this hilarious play called helping palestinians...
why don't you let them live freely and have a good life and have their own hospitals? to be treated by their own doctors in their own STATE..
anyway in international law the occupier is responsible of the security and the needs of the occupied people.... what the hell is that? you're telling me you're helping palestinians? then stop killing them... maybe that will be better than having them in hospitals...instead of claiming that you help palestinians at least let the refugees go back to their homes... more than half of the palestinian people are in refugee camps...




and read this...

\
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...shkelon-is-the-most-tragic-irony-1216228.html


edit: u remember when we talked about human shields ...
i want you to read this...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/02/israel1

israelis excuses are well known... in 2006 we saw in south lebanon in qana how children were killed and israel said that they were taken as human sheilds but i wonder why the UN observators in lebanon found no arms no dead armed people in area... nothing that has to do with arms in the whole village qana was found it's just a bad excuse

 

It seems that bambino_91 and IcyDude's always argue about this stuff...

 

I say israel should get out, i also think that the US should stop funding israel if this is how they are going to spend there money, after israel isn't even close to a world power.

 

Bambino, dont invent facts, so far over 250 of the casualties were POSITIVELY identified as Hamas members in uniform, and around 70 so far identified as women and children, the rest have not been identified yet,and i get my information not from the "zionist media" but from journalists around the world, i had the chance to watch the Palestinian media more than once and it's one of the most Biased Medias in the world, again dont try me, i have plenty of evidence to back this up.


currently Israel's attacks in Gaza are in no violation of ANY international law- the law permits you to attack millitary objectives of an enemy, even if civillian casualties are expected, but as long as you try to minimize civillian casualties (and i've seen interviews with israeli fighter-pilots who said that sometimes they were ordered not to attack their target because it was heavily crowded by civillians at the time)

there is NO occupation in Gaza, israel has withdrawn it's forces from there, and Gaza was given full autonomy, it's not our fault that the Hamas leadership that you have managed to screw things up with Egypt and made them close the border too, if you had a moderate leadership the Egyptian border would be wide open.


as for the palestinian refugees- their problem is self inflicted, and is no way our fault, the overwhelming majority of the palestinian refugees fled because Arab leaders ordered them to do so, for example in the city of Haifa the Hagana (the main jewish armed force before 1948) actually tried convincing them to stay, but their Arab leaders ordered them to leave, so they left.

let the refugees return to their home? you mean letting them into israel? why? sothat they could incite ANOTHER civil war? they already have a palestinian STATE called jordan, they can return there and live there, problem solved.

also where the FUCK do you get your information? it has been proved that the Hezbollah inflated the amount of civillians killed in the Qana village (they practically doubled it) and there were plenty of signs of millitary activities showed in the area


and if you take a quick look at the Official israeli "target bank" of the recent attack in Gaza you will learn that most of these are military targets, you can also find videos taken directly from the IDF aircrafts showing secondary explosions after attacks in what you'd call "innocent targets" proving that these "innocent targets" were used to store rockets, for example, your sorry Hamas leadership hid their rockets in a Mosque, but now they run to the world media with tears in their eyes claiming israel desecrated a mosque.....pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

 

why do you think the rest have not been identified.. I will tell you.. becasue some of them were found headless... or completely burnt.... and wat about the 70 chidlren and women.. isn't that a crime..or it's okay to kill them as long u kill hamas members...and please show the evidence...

can you tell me from where did u get this law?...

i also saw interviews with israeli soliders ... watch part 2 also..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=related

i think you should take history lessons... arab leaders didn't tell them shit... they left because ... you were moving from town to town doing masscars.

UN Resolution 194: <<( this is a law not like the one u made up .. permits you to attack millitary objectives of an enemy, even if civillian casualties are expected, << bullshit

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

please show me prove...

watch this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn2nsy3bjTs&feature=related

i don't see any dead Hezbollah soldiers ..

also bullshit..... because 70 Innocent people were killed ...if u were targeting military targets why did they die .. and they are more than 70......

last post not going to reply anymore

 

read the geneva conventions, and the laws about war crimes-

a war crime is only when specifically directed at civillian targets, for instance, every single rocket the Hamas launches is a war crime.

by international law you are permitted to attack millitary targets, and even you admitted 250 have been identified so far as hamas members, out of 400, with not all the bodies yet identified, it's a majority.

secondly, it is not our fault when there are secondary blasts caused because of the hamas storing it's rockets in mosques, it takes incredible naiveness to believe that a millitary operation, as well planned as it is, can take zero civillian casualties, particularly in an area as desnely populated at Gaza

instead of playing dumb and claiming im inventing this- go read the Genenve conventions and the UN law about war in densely populated areas, i did not invent these laws



also, YOU are the one who ought to take history lessons, even your leader Mahmoud Abas (abu Mazen) admits the refugee problem is caused because of the Arabs, here is his testimony-

as you see even your leaders admit there was no forced explusion, the palestinians fled because their leaders told them to, very simple, and we owe no monetary compensations to these people, arab states do

resolution 194 talks about the arabs being able to return IF they live in peace with their jewish neighbours, which both of us know they never will- they'll just instigate another civil war and try to wipe my country out of existence

they can, instead, move to the palestinian state, in Jordan

 

How about we light up the ganja and stop dropping nukes on each other?

 

its been going on for years why stop now?

 

Hmm idk, maybe to save people's lives and stuff?

 

Israeli dissident analytic writes that IDF op in Gaza is already stuck, Israelis are bogged down, and basically that's the end of the war: http://samsonblinded.org/news/israeli-attack-on-gaza-loses-momentum-5424