07 Account Safety -- Looking for recommendations!

Recently I have been reading several forums and I have noticed a lot of recent animosity towards buying RuneScape accounts. I have quite a bit of experience in selling RuneScape accounts, and I think it would be accurate to describe me as an 'up-and-coming' player in the gold/account markets. To cut to the point, I am extremely interested in knowing how I can improve my sales and reduce customer anxiety by providing improved security.
Currently I provide all my customers with a spreadsheet that looks like this:

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This document also includes pictures of the account creation process:
(1) Picture of account being created. This picture includes creation email login, creation password, creation age, and creation date/time.
(2) Picture of first username, time account created, and first email registered


Currently I am thinking of just making a ~4 minute video of me creating the account and the email it is registered - while being able to show the IP address logged into (from a VNC), global clock for creation time proof, details of account/emails fully visible, etc. All my accounts never had recoveries/authenticators set, and membership payments are done with bonds.
Please note that this is note a 'plug' advertising my sales, I am sincerely extremely interested in any suggestions you guys may have. Please tell me any ideas you have, and I will take them into due consideration.

 

Don't think you can improve on anything if you ask me. Excep donate to sythe / gain more vouches.

 

Well thanks for the input.

 

The biggest worry about account sales is not that the recovery information that is provided is incorrect, but rather the fact that the original owner will always be able to recover an account. There's nothing that can really be done about this besides building up your reputation as an account seller so that buyers will be less wary of this kind of thing happening down the line. That's not to say you shouldn't take all those steps, I think the video is a cool idea and I would be appreciative of that if I were a buyer (but mainly people depend on the OO on being able to recover for them if anything goes wrong, rather than depending on recovery information).

 

Completely understandable. The only argument I can counter that with is that the more information a buyer has, the more likely
(a) the seller is serious about this business (not a scammer)
(b) the account will be locked if both people are using the same correct information
(c) the seller will be unable to recover (I believe this becomes more prevalent with time - especially since these accounts are created on VPS's, not a 'home IP.')

Recently I have also found a decent email service that will allow me to make accounts liked to their actual creation emails. I will provide the full information of the emails creation along with the account information.

In regards to reputation, I think am quite well established on PlayerAuctions (prefer not to mention name here as this thread is solely for advice not an advertisement). I am happy to say however that my reputation/trust are growing quite rapidly still.

Thank you for the helpful feedback for far guys.

 

Coming from experience, it comes with time. The only thing you can do is keep getting sales, keep growing your vouches, try and donate a bit. People tend to trust higher donor status > higher vouches >.<

 

Meh. There's so much risk with selling accounts nowadays too. It's ridiculously easy for someone to scam by buying an account around here. All you have to do is buy an account from a somewhat reputable member, and claim it was recovered. The scammer can also claim that valuables were kept on the account. Then if the seller isn't able to recover the account back (this happens more often than you'd think), the seller is usually forced to refund the scammer in order to keep their sythe.org account unbanned. Even if you're the original owner, you sometimes might not be able to recover the account back.

So as you gain reputation as an account seller, be very wary of those you sell to. Or take my advice and stay away from the runescape account trading business altogether. Good luck.

 

Thanks. I can definitely see myself donating to Sythe in the future when I expand more of my business here; currently however most of my trades are through PlayerAuctions until I can figure out a better way to deal with trades/payments.

That's definitely not a side that you hear very often, but I completely agree with you; this same thing happened to my friend (who has 400 FB 98%+) 6 days ago A 0 FB buyer who joined a week ago claims the account was recovered, and it is up to my friend to recover or be banned without the buyer providing any proof. Very precipitous trade - but it's treated me well so far.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Taking notes and adapting.

 

http://www.sythe.org/market-discussion/1689331-10-reasons-why-you-should-not-buy-rs-account.html

This says it all. It doesn't matter what information is given, even if correct, the person who isn't the original owner cannot recover the account. At most they will be able to lock the account if given the right information. That document is comical and does nothing but give the buyer a false sense of security. I'd say more than 90% of accounts sold on here are done so with the intention of taking it back. That itself is a testament to the high risk of buying accounts.

 

I've read your list a few days ago - it was one of the things that inspired me to make this thread. Truthfully (and not being spiteful here), I don't think you know what you're talking about. I've read your list in conjunction with your vouch thread on both of your Sythe accounts and I can't actually see where you're drawing your vast experience from. To me you just sound bitter from one bad account trade you may have had in the past (can't find any evidence of this either though). The real source of the problem is uneducated account trading by people who think they've found a deal (cheap maxed main/maxed pures by people 'quitting', etc). Maybe I will find the time to write a comprehensive guide on the subject to reverse some of the damaged reputation of the account-trading market.
The document I provide the buyer with contains the exact same information that I would have to use to recover - I know you may not believe me -because there's a 90% chance I'm a scammer - but JaGeX never actually sent me my magical account recovery wand. You'll just have to trust me on that though.
The only other valid points I can think of are:

1. The original owner will have access to the creation IP (a valid point - but many like myself use temporary VPS's)
2. The account information provided is false (another very valid point - not sure how to combat this except reputation and video)

In regards to your list several points again - several of your points are the same ideas rephrased, while others are just straight wrong without any source of proof or even first-hand experience from what I can tell. Very BuzzFeedish tho; I'm sure you have a great future awaiting you in yellow journalism.
Thanks for the input regardless.

 

Ignorance is bliss.

The thread was created to educate those of the risks that comes with account buying, and why they should reconsider otherwise if at any juncture they decided to do so. If it wasn't already obvious, account scamming is one of the most recurring reports on this site and for reasons I constantly reiterate. You can say it was done in spite of discouraging the act for the purpose of disrupting the motives of scammers, sure, I'll go with that.

The vouch thread created on this account was done so in jest. I no longer record vouches because I deem them insignificant in conjunction with my activity in the market. My investment in this site is good enough collateral for the majority of the 30+ trades I've done since creating this account. I don't have to be an account trading mogul to know the obvious. I wasn't aware that experience was limited to one segment viewable by that person in the same segment.

Account information is half of the greater whole needed to recover an account. The system changed so that stolen information wouldn't deem you the original owner of the account BECAUSE you have said information. This is why giving account information is a failsafe and theoretically means nothing in regards to the security of the account.

Take this thread for reference.

http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?p=14992737#post14992737

 

No; you don't have to be an 'account-trading mogul' to know the obvious, but you shouldn't write guides on a subject unless you know what you're talking about. From what you've given me, you've basically just reaffirmed that you (1) have no clue what you're talking about and (2) have noticed the very obvious trend that account sales are risky. I agree with both of these points, but the purpose of this thread was not to reaffirm the obvious (yes; I have looked at the dispute section A LOT), but rather to see how I could try to improve (1) the buyers experience and (2) the buyers safety.

I'm getting confused because first you say that account information is nothing, then you say it is half of what's needed, yet you never actually say what is needed (this is what I really need answered please).
My bringing up your vouches was not to insult you, rather to gauge where you got the audacity to act as an expert in the account-trading business (writing guides, posting absolute comments, etc). If you have had as much experience in account trading as me, I think you'd appreciate how difficult it can be to recover a fully protected account even with full information if you do not submit an appeal immediately/have access to the original IP. I do not doubt your seriousness on this site, as I see you have donated, etc, but I believe that people should limit themselves to posting statements that are obviously opinion (i.e. what I can do to improve my customer satisfaction) or statements that they are intellectually qualified to post.

As to that thread you linked me to. I have thoroughly read it and there are several comments/questions I'd like to make about it.

1. The 2nd owner of this account (the person who made the thread) has none of the creation information or else he wouldn't be having this problem
2. He claims the account has been hacked. Who hacked this account...? The original owner or some random person (sounds like some random person from the thread which to me indicates gross negligence).
3. What kind of security measures did this buyer have...? I have a lot of experience with accounts, and it is quite difficult to recover an account from someone unless you have full information of it's creation or access to its' linked email (especially after years of playing on the account).
4. Can you link me to the original source please. I have serious doubts about the validity of this post, but I would be glad to give the owner advice if he PM's me.

 

I believe I do know what I'm talking about. I used the term mogul as an exaggeration for basic detail that can be picked up just by being involved in the account trading scene. I've bought and sold various accounts, and been in various situations in which different outcomes are presented. Here are two of the numerous account trades I've been involved in.

http://www.sythe.org/os-main-accoun...0-tl-acc-void-firecape-torso-fighter-hat.html

http://www.sythe.org/main-accounts-...24-99s-last-99-banked-7-months-mems-rsgp.html

If i'm reaffirming the obvious, why are many people still being scammed in this specific niche? Oh, because it's not "so obvious" to those who haven't experienced buying accounts before.

Yes, account information is half of a greater whole, but that half is essentially useless if not in the hands of the original owner if attempting to recover the account.

If you actually read the email it says account information wasn't the problem, it was the fact that he wasn't the original owner that can only be proved by looking at the IP Address at an earlier time frame. If information was the problem, the email would be worded in a way describing so. He also doesn't disclose whether information was a problem. For all we know, said information could've been given to him by that person.

What are you trying to infer by this?

What does that have to do with why I referred the thread?

The reason for linking the thread was to show that it doesn't matter what information you have, or how long you've played on the account for. If you aren't the original owner, you cannot recover the account yourself.

 

Thank you for linking me to some previous sales - would you be willing to give me a rough approximation how many accounts (of at least $50+) you've sold? For reference I can prove I have sold ~40 over the specified value (ranging from $50 - $500).

Almost anyone other then the first-time buyer will know that account sales are risky business. One glance at the dispute section will teach you that. To me this only proves that we need guides on how to make account trades safer rather then how to avoid them.
Do you think selling gold is much less risky? For reference, when I first started out on the former MMOExchange.net my first two/two trades I got chargebacked. My losses were approximately $300, but I didn't write a thread about how much more rewarding it was to farm gold legit -- I moved on, traded smarter, and haven't been scammed since (~year 2010 in gold or accounts).

Thank you for affirming that account information is indeed not completely useless - but actually quite useful. Your last remaining objection as I see it is that the original owner can always recover. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that the only realistic ways that you can prove yourself to be the original owner are through (1) IP address and (2) Membership payments.
I believe I mentioned it already, but all my accounts are created through temporary VPS's (I show proof of this in my document and all my VPS's are 500mb - i.e. one account max), and all membership payments are done through bonds. I see no other way how I could prove ownership, but if you could enlighten I would be glad to give you my opinion on this or to remedy it if it is a reasonable assertion.

In regards to the player who had the account recovered. He is not clear whether the account was even recovered by the original owner or whether he was keylogged (he uses words 'hacked' instead of 'recovered by original owner.' My point is that (1) he had no account information (2) he was given the account not sold it (3) the original owner is still living at the same IP presumably (4) if he was hacked then he is probably not the best example of a responsible account buyer - it was his own incompetance that got the account recovered if this is the case and (5) he did not buy the account from someone you could deem 'trustworthy.'


Thank you for your feedback. I hope you understand my points and objections, and I will do my best to explain why I believe your conclusion in this matter is wrong. However, I want to affirm again that I am not denying that account sales are risky, rather just trying to do my best to improve my service and the customer's safety. I believe that the number one issue with account transactions is greed. People see someone selling an awesome account cheaply and they totally disregard the sellers critical information. Please refer to this post below:

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Spoiler: One glance, right?

What exactly does that teach a first time buyer? Oh right, nothing. You're only reaffirming my position in educating first time buyers as deserving.

There is nothing safe about buying accounts. Do you not understand that? The seller holds all authority of the account, before and after selling it.

This was never about the insecurity of the seller, only the buyer. Mentioning such is irrelevant.

Are you trolling right now? It's useless if not in the hands of the original owner. The most you can do with such information is possibly get the account locked from suspicion, and that can easily be sidestepped by the original owner. What value does such information hold if that's all it presents?

Membership payments hold little to any reverence in determining if you're the original owner or not. It's solely done through looking at your IP/ISP history. I've given ending debit card digits, and juncture of use to account buyers, and they were never able to recover the account successfully. It either locked the account, or denied the recovery form.

Spoiler: Relevant

Do you honestly think the original owner recovered the account after 6-7 years? Given the circumstance of the original owner told by the person in question, it all seems highly unlikely.

He says this:

This is what is said in the email:

What does this confirm?

1. He had the information necessary to recover the account prior to this incident.
2. There is a crackdown on account recovery (change in the system) which only allows for the original owner to recover the account.

How do you know that the account was recovered, and not hacked through means of other methods? I know a few methods that could've been done that would allow for change/removal of the current email without the request of the one who has it at the time.

This is nothing more than pseudo-assurance. Same with what you're doing in the main post. There is no buyer safety. It all comes down to trust.

 

You're thicker than a brick sandwich, so I'll try to keep this as simple as possible.

1. Yes, I exaggerated slightly - one glance may not always be enough to gauge the fact that account selling/buying is risky, but it is extremely obvious to most people who had enough sense to find this forum to begin with (this is common knowledge)
2. This is an online market. Trades here in almost anything are risky.

Your joke of a list is not educational, you spam that link around like its the greatest thing anyone has ever written on this site. Let me destroy it really quick.

1. Waste of money.
---How can you be the judge of this? It takes hundreds of hours to make a good account. For almost every account you'll end up paying less then $.25/hr. Only a waste of money if you ASSUME that it's going to be recovered.

2. It can get recovered at any time.
---Wrong. If you read the thread it's actually possible for the buyer to turn on the seller.

3. It can get locked at any time.
---Definitely possible but not plausible. Locking an account benefits nobody.

4. You play in fear/worry that the account may get recovered.
---First real point. All chalks up to buying it from the right person as mentioned repeatedly.

5. You can't claim the accomplishments the account holds.
---This is a joke right? "Accomplishments." What a sad life you must live if you consider grinding an accomplishment. If anything PKing from an account with good skills is a more impressive accomplishment.

6. It can get banned for offenses prior to the account selling.
---I have never heard this happen except theoretically in the case of scammers reselling the same accounts multiple times (and this only once).

7. Takes away the fun.
---This explains a lot of the conversation I've had with you. The grinding must have fried whatever few brain cells you were born with.

8. You can't participate in what the account already has done.
---Yeah. Shame I can't participate in the Fourth of July either.

9. You can't fight for the recovery of the account yourself, you must contact the original owner, which most likely has already scamemd you.
---You must have been falling asleep at this point. You assume the account will (1) get recovered by the original owner, and you also assume that (2) no recovery information is given to the seller and (3) that the buyer buys from someone untrustworthy.

10. You're better off playing on an account created by you.
---Wrong. I wasted 6 years on RuneScape and always had a pretty shit account. I don't regret anything more in my life looking back.

You claim that the seller can never recover then in the same breathe say that the buyers safety doesn't matter. Read the thread; more influential people than you will contradict your statement.

1. Membership payments are important. You're wrong. Yet again.
2. IP/ISP histories change. People move schools, homes, jobs, ETC.
3. I have already mentioned about 8 TIMES THAT I USE TEMPORARY VPS'S TO CREATE/LEVEL ACCOUNTS AND I PROVE IT TO EACH BUYER.
4. MY VPS IS HALF THE CONTINENT AWAY FROM MY REAL LOCATION
5. IT IS OBVIOUSLY A VPS ISP, SO RECOVERING OFF THAT WOULD BE USELESS -- YOU COULD JUST USE THE SAME VPS PROVIDER FOR $5 TO RECOVER

Please get the above points. I have told you so many times I'm starting to think that you must suffer from chronic strokes.

You have told me 10X that only the original owner can recover, yet now you tell me this guy somehow recovered by a random hacker. What is an interesting discrepancy is how the user claims the random 'hacker' is still playing on his account, yet claims that they only give access to people who are the original owner (based on IP according to you - the JaGeX account expert with 2 sales).

3. He obviously can't decide whether he got hacked by the original owner or a random, but either way it just shows your wrong. Also SOURCE; this story has so many contradictions in it that either he is lying or his writing skills are very poor.

The burden of proof is not on me, it is on you. You are the one basing your argument on some questionable source while refusing to link me to the original, but I think we can both agree the most likely scenario is that he just got keylogged on some sketchy site.

Lastly, prove to me that you have at least 20 account sales at $50 each minimum or limit yourself to opinions. Talking to you is just sickening and an incredible waste of my time.

 

How is it "extremely obvious"? There you go exaggerating again without proving anything.

You can find this place by googling, "Buy Runescape account", 7th link. Should inherit knowledge about the risks of buying accounts come with that? What are you getting at? You're deluded.

It's not educational? Let's look up the definition of education real quick.

Education - give intellectual, moral, and social instruction to someone

What exactly is not educational about describing the risks and moral ethics of buying a runescape account? It fits the description like a glove to me.

I'll play with you if you want to go down this road.

Let's look up the definition of waste.

Waste - an act or instance of using or expending something carelessly, extravagantly, or to no purpose.

Let's detail some risks of buying an account.

1. Can get locked
2. Can get recovered
3. Can get banned for prior offenses

These are things that CAN happen. Knowing this, is it not careless to buy an account? You're relying on the chance that these things do not happen when the probability of one of those things are highly plausible based on the rate in which these do happen. You're basically gambling with your money for a product that will essentially never truly be yours even in your possession. To me that is a waste. Understandably this is subjective, but given the rate in which this is reported to be true, I'd say it's to be taken seriously.

What? The account you buy CAN get recovered at any time. THIS IS A FACT.

This is also a fact. Please look up the definition of "can". The locking of an account can happen in various ways.

1. Can get locked for suspicion (Red flag IP triggering).
2. Can get locked by reporting that the account has been hacked with enough information to support that.
3. The account can be under investigation.

By that point, the buyer no longer has control, or can recover control of the account without contacting the original owner for help (that's if he or she isn't the one behind the locking).

You can buy an account from the most trustworthy person and there will always be an innate fear, it's just the magnitude of that fear is lessened.

Well am I wrong? You can lie about it, but in actuality you can't. There is a psychological bearing behind it that affects some people.

Ever heard of delayed bans from botting? I have. Many times a matter of fact. Investigations are also a thing. You can be banned months subsequent to breaking rules, e.g., real world trading, botting, and even sharing accounts. All bans aren't instant.

This is subjective, but in many cases this is true. Runescape is all about grind. If the account you bought has completed most of the content the game offers that you can't experience, there is a higher chance of boredom. Pking builds aren't the only accounts being bought.

This is how you "destroy" my points? I'll wait for a real response for this, considering this is a fact.

Let me list some possibilities you don't mention.

The account can get locked.
The account can get hacked.

1. YOU CANNOT RECOVER THE ACCOUNT BY JUST HAVING INFORMATION. I thought I went through this extensively. I even gave you a reference thread of a recent occurrence of proving so.

2. I've seen "trustworthy" people here on Sythe scam, and recover accounts. It doesn't matter if they're trustworthy at the time, it's what comes after the fact, and that's something you can't measure.

How is an opinion wrong? When you consider the faults that come with buying accounts, and taking the 9 reasons above this into consideration, I'd say you're better off playing on an account you created. At least a sane person would.

Where did I claim the seller can NEVER recover? I actually said the opposite. The seller can recover the account at any given point in time. When I referenced buyer protection, I meant the buyer has no protection outside of 3rd party relations (PA) which has a lot of faults. Shall I link the faults? I shall.

http://www.sythe.org/market-discuss...-i-bought-gets-recovered-player-auctions.html (Read the replies)

http://www.sythe.org/market-discussion/1841642-playerauctions-running-scam.html

http://www.sythe.org/market-discussion/1641502-playerauction-account-suspended-buyer.html

Membership payments are important? All account information is important, but again, membership payments are just an extension of the rest of information needed to recover an account, e.g., account creation date, previous passwords, previous display names, etc. It's not something that can determine if you're the original owner. I can give an account away to a friend with a recurring payment still running. You see where I'm getting at? It doesn't prove much.

You can change your IP/ISP without changing location. These things do change, but not always. There is a track record they can refer to at an early date.

Are you trying to tell me that you can't pull up the same IP on a vps? I sure can. This doesn't prove that you can't recover the account. Like I said, this is pseudo-assurance.

Where does it say the account was recovered? I didn't know account hackings were only involved in recovery.

Are you trolling again? So because his story doesn't match your baseless presumption, he's lying? Man you're really something. He can't decide? Lmao I'm pretty sure he's adamant that he was hacked, and not by the original owner of the account.

You're the one saying the account got recovered, when there isn't any proof of that being the only plausible case. In fact, the way the person who got hacked puts it, it's unlikely that's the case. If you think the account was recovered by the original owner, you then agree that an account can be recovered at any time, considering the span is 5+ years.

I've sold 5 accounts in total, and have been in situations that I attest to in this thread. The two on sythe alone equate to $850 total value. These accounts weren't throwaway accounts either.

 

Ghast,

I do not have time to argue with you, especially since I respect you so little*. It is obvious to me that I can never hope to match the spare time of someone who is able to grind perfect accounts in RuneScape, so I will just say that I have sold nearly 10x as many accounts on PlayerAuctions alone as you have in total, rendering your 'expertise' almost worthless to me. Therefore, I hope you understand why I will just choose to ignore your posts before they become full fledged Mein Kampf's. The purpose of this thread was for productive discourse on how to improve customer satisfaction/account safety for the buyer, not as a medium for the delusional ravings of unqualified fools.

Thanks


*I don't respect anyone who has to buy their reputation/truthworthiness.

 

Resorting to ad hominems now? It's obvious you have no reply to my rebuttal, so now you're trying to take the high road after you're the one who ignited this confrontation. It's funny you how you chose this approach considering your immature coverage on the matter in your previous reply. I said everything that needed to be said, so I'll part ways with this thread.

 

Bro what are you getting so mad about? Ghast is just trying to make a point that buying an account is a potential risk, and in his opinion it's not worth spending money on. Risk v reward

In your opinion if you follow the proper procedure that it can be a safe purchase.. Just differing opinions there's no reason to disrespect someone