infractions for "accusing someone of scamming without evidence"

I don't think members should be infracted for warning others that the buyer "may" be up to something.. due to dodgy/suspicious behaviour like sending payments via PayPal mobile.

I have never accused anybody of scamming, but I have on occasion, posted a warning saying the seller might CB. It's not fair to the newer members that they basically have to get scammed before they learn what to look out for.

You guys don't know what it's like to sell gold on Sythe right now.. it's an absolute nightmare.

The more warnings the better I say.

 

Also, this whole "needing evidence" system has a huge flaw.

If you wait until somebody actually scams, before you do anything.. you are essentially giving in and letting the scammers win.

They make new accounts after they get banned.

I really think scam "attempts" should be accounted for.. these people literally add hundreds of us and try their luck until they hit jackpot.

If there was a feedback system in place to represent good/bad traders.. like how often they completed/walked away from trades due to excuses.

I really am sick of the BS excuses they come out with, to dodge the Sythe admins and scam again another day.. funny thing is, it would be so easy to prevent.

 

I know I shouldn't post without reading every post but here goes... I think that an infraction for saying TWC:reason shouldn't be given (I know this wasn't the case). I also do think that it's not good to accuse people of attempted scam if they haven't scammed in the past.

The mods here aren't tolerable of scamming which is a good thing because you can't ban someone for thinking they will scam you because the choice of words in their thread, such as "will not go first". Maybe they haven't heard of an OMM/MM but would be up for using one once they learned what they do.

I tried to sell gold on this site and got scammed.. but that was my own fault. We used increments, I went first thinking this guy was legit. Got scammed. Didn't take pictures. So I can see how someone would say i'm not going first, it's a legitimate statement. I guess what i'm trying to say is with our own common sense we have to choose whether or not to trust someone. The mods and admins on this site can't be banning people for assumptions I understand. We have to help in fighting scammers. For example, don't say "TWC:they won't use an MM" firstly ask them why won't they use an MM, if they say "I don't trust them" then you can possibly post that because that is not a good enough reason not to use an MM or OMM that is highly trusted.

 

I agree with this but partly see where mods are coming from.
A long time ago, i was infracted because i posted and said be cautious, he's most likely a scammer. I was right, and i ended being infracted for this. Ever since then,even if i know someone is going to scam, i don't say anything because if i'm going to be infracted for helping, what's the point? Take for example the user bluur or something along of that name, i could tell he was a scammer by posting in every single's thread, refusing an mm or him going first in buying GP. It just saddens me that i could have prevented a scam, but with a charge.

On the other hand, it's just based off of what you think is going to happen. Maybe the person is sketchy, but ends up not being a scammer. It makes the person feel like he/she isn't welcome here and is just going to be accused for no reason. Just put yourself in his or her position. EDIT: Also, if this will be implanted and be accepted, majority of the threads will have "Scammer watch out." I can bet anything on it.

 

The only reason you should ever say 'Trade with caution' 'or watch out, he's a scammer' is if you've actually attempted to trade with them, and if you have, then you will and should have proof.

Targeting someone because they could be a scammer is ridiculous, would you like it if you were new and trading on here and someone approached you and said 'watch out, he's scammer' when you havent even spoke to them?

 

The main problem here is that you can't just go around saying everyone is a scammer, even if they don't want to use a middleman. Some legitimate people who have just joined on this site may not know what a middleman is, and therefore not trust one and will also not want to go first. Telling the community that they are a scammer in their thread would not only cause them to lose business, but also cause people to not trust them.

I'm still for the old school way of just reporting them and requesting a TwC, which will then be at the staff's discretion if they get one or not.

 

I am not necessarily saying to throw out the old system or to create a new one. I am mostly suggesting improvements to adapt to a somewhat hostile sythe environment.

I am not necessarily suggesting that you ban or act against one being accused but rather use your own personal judgment to determine what action should be taken against (or not against) the accuser.

I do not advocate going around senselessly accusing people left and right...
You must still not understand that it is simple to KNOW someone is a scammer with common sense. its not just about knowing because they say they wont use an MM or whatever...its just simple to take note of repetitive patterns and take action accordingly.

you are failing to utilize past experience to improve the future.

The simple fact remains: if nothing is done, scammers will continue to get what they want while staff continues to sit on nonprogressive rules and innocent, true, honest members continue to get screwed over. cool.

 

Honestly there is not much Sythe can do at this point. New members are important to Sythe and if there reputation is even tarnished by the slightest amount it will shy them away from the community.

The only effective thing to do is raise awareness of the scammers. If someone is scammed it is simply their fault and they should be more aware of what they are doing before they take risks with new sellers.

 

Was getting ready to post this before I saw you already word it perfectly, Karl.

 

We all know exactly what you're talking about. The thing is, you're wrong; you don't know these people are scammers. You just think you do. If there is any actual evidence of suspicious behavior, then please report them asking for a twc. What you can't do is libel users in their threads based on your suspicions.

 

Honestly, the OP is being too hostile. You got infracted for false accusations and then you went and did it again. You deserve to get infracted. How is that anyone elses fault but your own? Let's use one of your horrible analogies too.

Imagine a Nazi officer being punished for 50 years, or however many years, for taking part in the Holocaust. When he gets out, JUST BECAUSE IN HIS OPINION HE FEELS HE WAS UNJUSTLY SENTENCED, would you think it better for him to do it again or to go and do something about it like changing the rules. This is where your analogy doesn't make sense, they aren't parallels. You can't just change the rules of something that is so set, which is that the UN does not allow mass genocide. You might not feel like the rules on this site are incorrect, but just because YOU feel like they are, doesn't mean you are right.
This is how a democracy works:
You fill out a form and get support. You don't go on a feedback sub-forum and just complain about it. Your first post didn't say a lot at all. It was just a stupid analogy. Seriously, you are a PRO at fallacies...

EDIT:
Oh and ultimately, you are blaming the sythe rules for people being scammed when it's the victims fault. We are given resources like OMM's to make safe deals and they give us warnings. Is it the victims fault for not reading the rules, stickies, guides on how to not get scammed by paypal, etc.? Of course it is. You're giving blame to the wrong people. Everyone gets scammed. The best way to beat a scammer is to not get scammed. Be educated and smart, realize that people are not obligated to be honest to you because you don't know who they are. That simple. Someone will ALWAYS get scammed. It's a lesson we ALL have to go through. You've got yourself going down a road full of fallacies. Very hard to argue with you if you're going to use fallacies.

And I respect that you are trying to help people but honestly, you should just let it be. If anything, just send a PM to them? Wouldn't that be so much better? Then you won't be inflating your post count, annoying people on threads, etc.


How to fix your problem? PM the OP of the thread that you think could get scammed giving him several links on how to not get scammed and tell him to just watch out because you feel suspicious.

/end thread? lol..

 

i have NEVER been wrong thus far. every single person i have called out IS a scammer.


edit: also this thread can be closed. Obviously staff's mind is made up...there is no sense in continuing on going back and forth about it

thanks

 

I agree with the rule, if you don't have valid proof you shouldn't be bad mouthing the accused member. I believe this is libel/slander.

However;

I've also had infractions for accusing somone of scamming without proof and when asked, i've provided. I didn't take the infractions very well and I admit, I should have been more professional about the situation. Take a look at the thread, I believe the infraction was given by Badger last year sometime. I'm not here to agrue, I just think it was a bit harsh.

 

I think this is an issue which is too often portrayed in black and white. There are certainly circumstances where scamming is evident, and I myself will post warnings in sketchy dealers' threads. Realistically, though, if you are not a highly experienced trader, you should not be making these judgement calls without solid evidence. I'm not saying evidence that someone directly scammed another person. I'm saying something along the lines of a user blocking you on MSN when asking for an OMM.

Also, to the OP, you really did not word this post favourably. Although your underlying point is worth mentioning, I do question your judgement in certain situations, simply because you seem to react strongly on emotion.

 

I hope this isn't grave digging, but I am going to post this anyways.

I don't see the harm in posting something that can be found in stickies anyways. It's more of a reminder to all the traders to trade smartly and safely. If you find somebody paying $.80/M, only using PayPal, buying high amounts only, refusing to do simple trade things for safety, not using increments, etc is clearly a scammer. You can put it in stickies, but you can post it on threads? I really am not sure why you can't post, if you strongly believe they are out to scam. Of course you can't have actual evidence til somebody scams, which is stupid as shit, because we're trying to prevent that very thing, right? I'm very willing to take an infraction for every post I make about people obviously scamming. I don't think it's right to just give me an infraction for that, but I'm still willing to take it. The gold buying section is full of nothing but scammers. Unless we post something about it, it's going to be too late. You can't ban for a hunch, but you can warn others of it.

Really don't care if this gets read.

 

If there is any post on this thread I agree with, its this one.
I honestly can't explain the amount of times I have seen threads with members getting upset because they've been charged back. I don't mean to be rude, but if a member with 30 posts is paying $1.00/M, no increments, PayPal only with no PA, expect to be charged back.
If someone is an obvious scammer (or is showing obvious patterns towards being a scammer) then it should be a fair call for another member of the community to warn the less-knowledged. Period.

 

As past exp has shown me, its not always true though...
A while ago I was selling an iphone. A mod posted in my topic, and was planning on selling to them. I was contacted over MSN from someone that wanted to buy it, I decided to go ahead with the sale and it all went great, He paid, I sent it off. I asked him if he could vouch for me, he created a new account and posted in my topic that it was sold to him.
People started saying that I was a scammer and a self voucher because of this. a mod came in and gave me a month ban... I attempted to dispute it and failed since no one really seemed like they cared (not the point to this post)

I havent traded since, and dont plan to (unless its WoW gold, which I just buy from sites to save drama)

 

The ban section here is ridiculous. It is so amazingly hard to get someone banned who is so obviously a scammer. You can't submit MSN histories, I tried posting feedback about that but it got closed instantly, no discussion allowed, PMed mod who closed it for insight, they never responded. I honestly have been scammed 3 times since my last report, and I don't bother anymore, it is too much of a pain in the ass, and I don't care enough because I won't trade with that person again and you guys make it too difficult for me to warn others, so the others are on their own. I absoloutly hate the ban system here, it also takes a good solid week for a report to go through.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you guys don't do a good job, I just don't think there is enough of you guys (who's active?) to have everything covered.

Also.

I don't see a problem with stating your own opinion and declaring it as so. Other members would be able to look at that member stating there opinion and decide if that member is a good source or not.

If I was to say, "I would be careful trading with this person because they don't want to use a middleman and they are new here, please be careful trading." I do not see a problem with it. None of it is libel and none of it is claiming something unknown to be true. It is declaring your opinion on what you would do. If the person who writes that is a new person here than the traders will form their own opinion anyway.

I feel it would be wrong to say, "This person is new, has no vouches, and is selling a 138 account for a lot lower price than it is worth, so he MUST be a scammer." I feel that is wrong, saying he must be a scammer because the other things are a lot of the time associated with scammers does not truly mean he is one, but pointing that stuff out and saying you would be careful trading should be fine, in my opinion.

tl;dr: The current ban request system sucks and needs a major update, and people should be able to speak their opinions as long as they don't pass off their opinions as facts.

 

exactly.

 

I think that Nick already adequately explained why to you why we can't except MSN histories, but here:

This is why MSN logs are useless. If we were to accept them then we might as well just ban everyone ever accused of anything without even looking at the evidence.

So if I were to go to your sorc garden account sales thread (http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=1152701) and post something like

you would see no problem with it?