Counter Scamming

The Problem:

I was in a situation yesterday where User A was an obvious scammer, and I had more than enough proof to get him banned. He had scammed a good account and User B, the original owner, was apparently crying. User A wanted me to middleman for him, and I would have had the chance to regain the stolen account and return it.

The problem was that, after consulting a few staff members, they advised me not to do it as this would be 'counter scamming'. Instead I just got User A banned and moved on... but he still had the account.

The Solution:

Allow official middlemen and staff to participate in this 'counter scamming' to regain(and return) lost items. It's not scamming or stealing; the police recover stolen goods all the time. Regular users would not be allowed to participate.

These rules serve as a form of a 'warrant' to conduct the recovery.

Rules:

• A staff member must get permission from 1 other staff member before he regains the stolen items.
  
• Any official middleman wishing to do a recovery must get permission from two different staff members.
  
• If the recovered items cannot be returned to the original owner, the items will be sold and all funds donated to Sythe.org
  
• If a staff member/OMM keeps any of the recovered items for personal gain, he/she will be permanently banned. Of course he/she must have reasonable time to return said items.

Please do NOT lock this without allowing me to reply.

 

cool idea bro

 

I support 100%. What do you think about "counter scamming" and giving the info to the staff so they can return it to the original owner.

I talked to a scammer once and he gave me his account to sell it and I tried giving it to sin but she said I was counter scamming so I gave it back to the scammer. I think it should be allowed to counter scam as long as 1 staff approves for anyone, not only OMMs. Discuss?

 

No. It would get too messy and most likely abused. In fact I'm considering defining staff member as global/market/rs moderator only.

It would be best for only staff members/OMMs, highly experienced users in the market, to conduct the recoveries.

Thanks.

 

Yes, I like the idea a lot, why let the scammer have the account? If you can get it back for the person then you should.

 

No, this isn't the same thing. Police have a different situation. The thief knows police are going to be looking to get the bike back (they do not give any trust to the police officer).

What you're suggesting is similarto entrapment, which in the real world is illegal. Note, I say similar because it isn't the exact same thing.

Entrapment is basically when a member of law enforcement goes undercover and tries to lure a person into committing a crime by establishing trust (ie, undercover agent tries to get someone to sell them drugs).

I do not believe mm's should have the ability to do this, this defeats the whole purpose and ideals that mm's serve (you are essentially the most trusted users on the forum). It isn't your responsibility to return scammed items, it is to ensure trades are completed without scamming. If person A is selling something, it is person A's responsibility to use common sense to ensure that they are not scammed (taking the necessary precautions that are available to them). If you would like to help and prevent people like person A from being scammed then you should create more awareness.

I understand where you are coming from with your idea, and it is noble that you want to return someones stolen item; However, it is wrong.

 

I support. Good thinking.

 

I support entirely. If the original owner got scammed can't he just recover himself :S?

 

I like this idea, and i do not think that regular users should be allowed to counter scam. This could be a great way to return a few accounts/stolen items to the original owners.

This wouldnt work on accounts that were recovered though.

 

I like this alot.

 

best idea ever

 

Difference is.. if they scammed it.. and they are trying to scam money.. I doubt they will use a OMM especially with this little "rule" in place.. This is something that should of been discussed in the Moderator lounge or Moderator forum? Discussed pirvately, no offense to you Nick.

I do like this idea.. But if you think of it, I doubt they would accept a OMM knowing this rule can be in place. More of a hassle.

 

Person A is a scammer. If we have the ability to take back scammed goods, then we should do so.

 

Person A scammed the account whether or not he WANTS to be legit and sell it for money or just scam..


Oh look he wants a OMM.. Well now I know not to use Nick since I know he does "Counter scamming"

I think you should of said this suggestion to a mod and it should of been debated about privately, seeing as how you suggesting the decision comes down into the hands of Mod/2 mods (staff) any ways.

 

But in this situation, it wasn't Person A's account at all, it was Person B's account, therefore, if you have Person B's consent to take the account from Person A, what is impeding you from doing so (and how is this counter-scamming, as you can't steal from Person A what wasn't his to begin with)?

On the other hand, it's the sole duty of the middleman to ensure the success of the trade, and, by taking one of the goods from one of the sellers, you are forsaking your duty as a middleman to ensure the safety of the trade for both parties (even if it is for a noble cause).

Again with the negative, this could be abused, as somebody could offer fake proof to the middleman and the middleman inadvertently and scammed the user out of his account, without time for the supposed scamming party to dispute the charges against him.

 

This makes perfect sense; but I do think it's a good thing to add this rule. It's a matter of choice: give the scammer what he wants / give the scammed one what he wants. If you had that choice, why would you protect the scammer? No matter what it takes, I'd help the scammed one to regain their items.

The middleman will need a staff member to agree with it, that's mentionned in the first post. It's possible to trick one of both parties, but tricking both will be quite an effort.

 

agreed

 

If person A gets his account scammed then how exactly are you going to get it back? "Hey person B, Can I go on that account you just scammed, I want to make sure everything works" ?

 

No. Horrible idea. If the guy who gets scammed didn't take the necessary precautions, it is not the staff/OMMs position to regain it for them. The guys punishment for scamming is a permanent ban, that's all you're supposed to do.

 

So even tho the person hired an OMM it is his fault for getting scammed?