The Existence of God

Well, first of all i see that this thread contains alot of controversy I do beleive in god; how else would you explain the creation of the universe (The big bang theory contradicts the laws of science itself).

 

Explain, how so? Please Dr.KingWizz tell us what you heard from your 5th grade science teacher..

 

Well...Science says that to create matter you need matter. So at the beginning of the universe there was no matter (according to the big bang theory) and then a big explosion just randomly happened and there was matter. Magic!

 

Ok I really do not feel like reading every post leading up to mine, so I will post and read all posts following.

1. I am an atheist, and such do not believe in any sort of god. The normal mono-theistic Christian/Catholic/Islamic/Jewish god, as well as every other god contrived throughout history.

2. I believe that religion in itself has been set up in order to praise, reward, and congratulate any followers. The moment it had enough of a "fan-base," religion had no way of coming down.

3. The inherent success of religion lies in the fact that it never truly loses followers, and can only gain followers. [The exception being death, of course.]
[a] This is partly because followers of modern religions believe that anyone that believes anything OTHER than they do, and try to convince them of their beliefs, are simply temptations. By disregarding and fighting against these temptations, you are actually gaining more favor in the eyes of god. So to try and convince a follower that they are wrong would only bolster their faith.
They NEVER require a shred of evidence. They constantly disregard evidence against god as said temptations, and say that all that is needed is faith. They believe that god would never prove he exists, for that destroys the purpose of faith, so now asking for evidence is no longer a way to convince a believer of their fallacy. What I find almost moronic about the believers is that they constantly disregard evidence against them, and say that evidence does not matter, yet when evidence that supports their cause comes up they rub it in everyone's face. What happened to "evidence doesn't matter"?

I would ramble on but I am way too tired right now to think of anything else.

 

I completely disagree (and I consider myself a Christian).

Firstly, to address the supposed contradiction of science. I assume the laws of science you mention are the Natural Laws the Universe is bound by. AKA: Physics. This natural law manages everything that goes on inside the universe and keeps things nice and tidy (who cares about quantum theory ). However, the Big Bang occurred before this so-called universe was technically in existance...therefore it did not necessarily have to follow these natural laws. This means that we cannot comprehend or say without a doubt what did indeed happen before the big bang and during it (if it did in fact occur). So yes, it contradicts the Natural Laws, but that only proves that the Big Bang could not occur inside this Universe...confusing I know....but bear with me.

Now secondly, as a Christian as I said above, I do believe in the Big Bang. Now many of you may wonder why...I am a Christian because Jesus claimed to be God...his proof, if you will, were the miracles he performed. Now many skeptics say "well those miracles were impossible," "how could anyone break the laws of science," etc... My question to these skeptics is this. If it is plausible that the greatest miracle of all has already occurred, then is it really that far fetched to believe that the other miracles were not only minor in comparison, but "possible?"

Lastly, at this point you may be wondering what this "super-miracle" was that would justify my argument. I would direct all those asking this question to the fist line of the Old Testament. "In the beginning, God Created the Heavens and the Earth......" ****BANG**** Now if a God did in fact cause the Big Bang, is it really that far fetched to believe that he can manipulate everything in this Universe, therefore making the miracles Jesus performed possible? I think not.

Of course, no one can know whether a God caused the Big Bang or whether it just happened. Logic tells us that Cause/Effect is the only rational explanation. Logic also tells us that there cannot be an infinite series of causal chains because you cannot have an infinite amount of finite things, meaning there must have been an un-caused first cause. That, in my opinion, was God. So logically, one thing is for sure....It takes much more "Faith" to be an Atheist, than it does to be a Christian/believer in God.

 

Well, I think that this is the most intellectual answer we have had and secondly you said:

If so then how science even imagine how the world was created. In my opinion The Big Bang theory derives from Genesis and is just disguised with scientific confuffle.

 

To add to this: Laws of physics change for different scenarios. Something with that amount of mass I would have to assume is governed by different laws of physics we do not know about yet.

The big bang took a fraction of a second to happen. After it happened, there was still most likely altered laws of physics due to the amount of matter 1x10^-748837 seconds after it.

It is. God has a plan. His plan is perfect. God is all knowing. This means he knows the future and his plan is perfect. If God had to interfere with the universe at any point for his plan to be perfect it would assume that either:

A. God is not perfect
B. What he created is not perfect which implies God is not perfect

They may be able to in the future.... They may in fact be able to "proof" that a natural force caused it.

Logic tells us that you can not know for sure what an events cause is.

No. Logic can not give you more information that you already know. Therefore you can not gain the knowledge that there is not an infinite amount of things from it. I have no problem believing that everything is infinite.

No it doesn't. The burden of proof falls of those who believe. Until you proof that God exists, then we have to have no faith at all. There is no evidence for it so I refuse to believe until there is.

 

No, it does not. To the extent of our knowledge you cannot create matter.

You don't know what you're talking about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

The Big Bang did not create any matter.

 

Im a Christian And God Is Real !


This post received an infraction for spam

 

Ok, now that we are going so far back as to propose who or what created/started the Big Bang [you may capitalize god, I will capitalize Big Bang], I will propose two of SCIENCES theories as to how this may have occurred.

1. I am sure that you understand the three possible directions our universe is headed in. If not, here is the gist of it. At the current expansion rate of our universe [it is expanding, we know that as fact], we are going to do 1 of 3 things. The universe will either A. Keep expanding, B. Slow expansion and eventually stop, or C. Slow expansion and come to a stop, but then begin to fall back in on itself from it's own gravitational pull. Now what theory #1 concerns is possibility C. The Universe will keep expanding, and then collapse back in on itself. Now where this progresses to how our Big Bang came along is what the Big Bang originated FROM. The Big Bang originated from a singularity, or a point at the center of a black hole that has almost infinite mass and infinite heat, all about the size of an atom. No one really knows much about singularities, just that they most likely exist. Now the singularity that spawned our Big Bang MAY have been the result of the matter in our Universe collapsing back in on itself sometime BEFORE our Big Bang. This would simply create and endless cycle, however, which goes on for infinity and boggles the mind, so for the sake of our sanity I will provide another explanation that goes much, much, much farther back and leaves the realm of our Universe.

2. THE MULTIVERSE! I'm sure all of you have heard of parallel universes, but what laws govern them and where are they located? They are located inside the 11th dimension, known as THE MULTIVERSE! The Multiverse is an extremely complex system that encompasses our Universe as well as an infinite amount of other Universe. Where did these Universes come from? Strings! Yes, strings. I know it may sound silly, but I will explain it. Strings are sub-atomic particles that are at the very base of everything. Consider them small loops, and these loops vibrate, or oscillate. These oscillations differ ever so slightly from other strings, and the way these strings oscillate dictates everything about what they make up. It says whether it's a proton, neutron, or electron, what element it is, what elements it combines with, the energy contained, and so on and so on. Now when these strings oscillate in a certain way, they grow, [within the 11th dimension, so no you don't see a giant wobbly string popping out of your thigh], they grow into humongous "membranes" that actually contain Universes! So within the Multiverse, there are almost infinite amounts of membranes that each has it's own Universe. Now where did the matter in our Universe come from? Who knows. Maybe a neighboring membrane collided with ours and at the tiny point where it collided, all of the matter funneled into ours into that tiny point, creating the singularity and the Big Bang. There are multiple different theories.

Also, in before "God created the Multiverse too."

As I said before, prior to the Big Bang there was a singularity, an extremely hot, extremely dense, extremely small point in which all the matter in the universe existed simply because the gravity of this singularity was so great that it would have pulled everything in the universe into itself. Eventually, it became to great, or it hit critical mass, and eventually exploded. So there was matter before and during the Big Bang.

 

Interesting...You make a very significant error here. You are claiming that because God would be interfering, that makes him imperfect. Surely you are not talking about the Christian God...The same God that resorted to killing all of humanity with a flood because of all the evil...The same God that was talked out of ending humanity again and again multiple times...The ability to change your mind does not convey imperfection, it conveys an intelligent God. If being intelligent rules out the classification of "All-Knowing" then rule it out, but that hurts the unbelievers much more than the believers my friend. How this argument arises in the first place is beyond me...seems to me like you have an inability to think for yourself when confronted with new arguments. Instead you find yourself quoting the same "skeptical" atheistic arguments that already poison this thread. The same "skeptical" atheistic arguments that claim be completely rational, but commit dozens of logical fallacies, one of which you commit at the end of your post...anyways, I digress.

Unlikely; your inability to understand science while at the same time attempting to use it to convince believers there is no God is extremely troubling.

Interesting, an immediate contradiction. So which is it...will we one day be able to "prove" (I am assuming that is what you meant, after all, your spelling is wretched) the Big Bang resulting from natural forces? Or does Logic tell us you can not know for sure what an event's cause is? I believe you mistake Logic for Skepticism. Logic does not tell us it is impossible to find an event's cause...where you get this idea is beyond me. Perhaps you should consider taking a couple Logic classes rather than babbling off quotes?

Excellent, then you should have no problem believing in an infinite God. Logic does, however, tell us that there cannot be an infinite amount of finite things. Do not get me wrong, an infinite about of numbers can in fact exist, but not finite things (such as time, matter, etc). There is a difference between an abstract infinite series and a concrete one. One is purely theoretical and the other is actual. Mathematically, we can conceive of an infinite number of days, but actually, we could never count of live an infinite number of days. You can conceive of an infinite number of mathematical points between two bookends on a shelf, but you could not fit an infinite number of books between them. That's the difference between abstract and concrete. Number's are abstract. Day's are concrete. Therefore "everything" cannot be infinite, because in reality "everything" is finite.

Ah, and finally, the typical atheist argument. First of all, I said, it takes more faith to be an atheist than to be a Christian, or believer in God. I am making a probability argument, one of which you cleverly tried to change into a burden of proof argument. The arguments I stated above are the "statistics" behind my argument. In other words, I explain how it is rational to believe there is a God. You on the other hand try to refute my arguments which failed miserably, then you end ironically asking for proof? This burden of proof idea is a common misconception and is a logical fallacy, more specifically: Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. It states: The Fallacy of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam has a recognizable form. It is an argument from an ignorance of (or lack of) proof. Its form: A proposition (God Exists) has not been proven true, therefore it is false.

In conclusion, address MY arguments. Spare me the typical "My belief is more rational than yours" bullshit because the fact is, it isn't.

-Slopdog

 

Would you care to start with concrete evidence of a God, rather than trying to refute something without explaining yourself first? Nowhere have I seen you post conclusive evidence, and it would be of great interest to everyone here to see some.

Typically, you remind me of a twelve year old with a senior highschooler's vocabulary. You bash other arguments without providing evidence for your own.

 

You say that it is rational to believe there is a god.

WRONG!

The odds are so heavily stacked against religion [probability-wise] that it is foolish to believe there is a higher likely-hood of there being a god than there not being one. Both god and the Big Bang have just as much of a likely-hood, if it weren't for the fact that evidence supports the idea of a Big Bang. There is not a shred of evidence that supports the idea of a god. The idea of a god is simply the most CONVENIENT way to explain things, not the most PROBABLE. There is a huge difference.

 

Would you care to go back one page and read the original post? Again, I do not offer "proof" for God because that is impossible. All I can offer is probability and likelihood that the miracles Jesus performed actually took place based on historical evidence, Astrological evidence/facts, and logic. You will have to ask a question that pertains to my expertise rather than asking such a broad and blatantly incorrect question.

Spare me the Ad hominem attacks if you would. I don't play these games. You want answers, I can help supply them. You want to directly attack me rather than the argument, then I believe you need to suspend yourself for flaming.

Thanks,

-Slopdog

PS: Almost forgot....

This opinion comes simply from your own bias. No evidence, only pure opinion. I can offer an explanation and evidence to back up my statement, unfortunately you only seem to offer an opinionated guess.

Also, the idea that God is a "convenient" way to explain things is COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS. It amazes me how terrible the history curriculum must be these days for someone to make a mistake as utterly pitiful as this... Christians were beaten, stoned, crucified, beheaded, etc, for their beliefs immediately after the death and resurrection of Jesus. You had to be completely insane if you were going to join the Christian movement without proper evidence. Becoming a Christian meant LIKELY death...and yet you make the disgusting argument that it was convenient...I'm sorry, the best I can do is refer you to a college level History course...to know that the misunderstanding of faith is this distorted makes me sick to my stomach.

 

If you cannot offer evidence, then there is little point in you posting. A - keyword: rational - debate requires evidence to support an argument, and please do excuse me for saying so, but you admitting you have no evidence simply suggests that you wish to be irrational, and therefore you must bow out of this debate. Theories such as the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution have coherent evidence to support them, such as the Prebiotic Soup report, but all Christianity seems to have is a book which has probably been fabricated to the point where little of the events are told in true, if any.

I was simply stating the truth of oppinion, but nonetheless, if by answers you mean evidence - which you have yet to supply - then you should probably cease to contradict yourself and simply supply evidence, rather than avoiding doing so altogether.

Okay, would you care to go back one page and look at your own post? Or perhaps look at this:

... I rest my case.

I believe you are out of context good sir. First of all, it IS a convenient way to explain things, if you believe in a deity. Secondly, REGARDLESS of what happened to believers of a specific religion, it was STILL a convenient way of explaining things. Thirdly, the people who tormented Christians had their own religions, which were ALSO a convenient way of explaining things.

But to ask you a question: Why are you Christian? Why are you not Islamic, Hindu, or another religion? They all have their holy texts, they all claim certain things to happen. I haven't much doubt that a man called Jesus may have existed, but I also have little doubt that Mohammad did as well. A man existing does not mean what is written about him is true.

 

Do you know what matter is? Ofcourse it created matter. thats the whole point of the big bang theory.

 

You are attempting to backup your points with fictional stories you are trying to pass off as true. God has a divine plan. It is perfect. God is perfect. God is all knowing. This means. You have no say in what you do. God already knows if you are going to heaven or hell and you can not change that. The only way God could have "created" these miracles is if he planned to do them all the time. But why would he have to create miracles if Earth is perfect?

You want to get into the proof argument? I would rather not, so I will not. It is POSSIBLE that we will be able to essentially prove that the big bang was caused by natural forces. This is not out of the question.

Where did I get this idea? Right out of a philosophy of religion text book. It says basically that you can never be FULLY sure of an events cause. This is NOT what the scientific method does. To "prove" something with the scientific method is to be able to have anyone be able to replicate the results. Think about this flawed logic:

I hit your knee with a baseball bat.
Your knee moved forward.
Therefore, me hitting your knee caused your knee to move forward.

The problem is... You can NEVER know for SURE what caused an event, and logic deals with absolute, non-refutable ideas.

Explain what you mean by an infinite god.

Yes, but you can NEVER know if there is an infinite or finite amount of something.

Time and matter are both infinite. I will not believe the Christian view on time, as scientifically it is showing more and more to work in circles.

How does this relate at all?

I did because you did not say that you were making a statistical argument. And even if you did, I do not agree as I feel it requires no faith to be an atheist.

So, because more people believe in God than not, it is rational to believe in God? There is a very large chance that all those masses are wrong.

I did not fail, you just did not understand what I was saying. Unless you are going to try and prove God exists you should not be posting in the debate section.

I know. Unless you give me proof of God, I will assume that he does not exist. Why? Because the concept of God makes no sense and it is rational to believe that God does not exist.

You CAN NOT create matter. The big bang did not create anything... >.<

 

No, it isn't. Please read that wikipedia entry I linked you to previously, it's good for a basic understanding.

 

Yes, this is possible, but then you get into the question of what caused the natural forces to cause the big bang. Goes on forever.
So, yes, God would be a very convenient way to explain this.


And in response to some asking for concrete evidence of God... There obviously isnt any, and that is why we are having this debate. There are some facts that some might believe is evidence of God, but nothing concrete.

 

I'm sorry, but I thought I learned the law of conservation of energy in the 5th grade. "Energy cannot be created, nor destroyed" LOL.