Science & Religion

If you'll examine all of the threads on the main page of this section of the forums, you should notice that the issue of science and religion seems to be very important to all of us, or at least important enough to dedicate multiple different threads to with a combined total of ~1500 replies on this first page of discussions alone.

For the sake of this thread I'm going to toss all my beliefs out the window so we can all look at this situation objectively, as I feel that something absolutely essential is being left out here on both ends of the spectrum.

On the one end of the spectrum, we have the theists, and on the other end we have the atheists, and at the moment the two groups seem to be engaged in a philosophical war of some sort - not just in this forum but all over the internet in general.

On the one end we have theism, which has played a large part within all cultures since the dawn of time. The thing I find to be very interesting is that if you actually research religion and spirituality, and if you are able to approach all of it's aspects with a completely open mind, you come to realize that almost all religions are essentially talking about the same thing. All of it seems to root from this cookie cutter version of a "Mystical" experience many men have undoubtedly experienced. If you analyze all the important figures for mainstream religion... Jesus Christ, The Buddah, and many of the saints and prophets of different religions you may come to find that they are all preaching a very similar message... which is Love and Compassion... and hopefully all of us can agree, that regardless of whatever belief one may uphold, this is a very positive message to be spread.

Now... the problem with all of this, is that someway somehow, the limitations of our communication combined with mans desire for control, greed, and power has corrupted the source of almost every religion in a variety of very disgusting ways, which has turned religion into this walking joke of contractions often used a utility to control and manipulate the masses... and it has caused much despair... something which started out with the purest of intentions has been converted into a vessel to deliver hate and pain by man kind.

Now while all of this has been happening, man kind has been in the process of developing another nifty little tool for exploring our world as we know it... behold! the power of science! Throughout history science has always caused a lot of commotion within religion as it has provided us with very direct factual evidence that has completely shaken the foundation of many mainstream religions time and time again.


So now, as this becomes more and more apparent, another group starts to form which is mostly composed of people who consider themselves to be intellectuals that view the world with a very rationalistic view point, and they call themselves Atheists... or ANTI-Theists.. these are people who have turned Science into their version religion (which is completely acceptable, I mean look at all the wonderful things science has shown us), and for the most part, this occurrence makes perfect sense... I find it totally acceptable that someone would not want to be associated with the corrupt entity mainstream religion has become... no one can deny that religion has been the source of many wars and a facility for mass population control over the years, so many people are starting to distance themselves from it.

Unfortunately, not all is well, as there are still some problems with atheism and science. And ultimately it comes back down to the same problem as religion... Through the nature of man kind's desire for control, power, and greed, science in many instances has turned into a tool that has been used to promote war, facilitate control over populations, and create weapons of mass destruction capable of eradicating our existence as we know it. But wait - I know what some of you are probably thinking... not ALL scientists are like that, science still does some wonderful things for society.. and yes, this is true... in the exact same way that not all people who embrace religion/spirituality are bad, and many of them still do bring some very positive things to our society.

Now then... here is the problem, the meat of this little essay so to speak. Our world as we know it is facing some of the greatest troubles it has ever faced. Many of our greatest scientists, philosophers, and spiritual men have been warning about these troubles for many years now... Man kind has Eliminated hundreds if not thousands of entire species, never to be seen again. Many ecosystems are slowly collapsing and being destroyed in the name of profit, there is much evidence to suggest that global warming is in fact a serious threat and we are also depleting our natural resources at an alarming rate which will inevitable lead to an economic crisis. At the present moment 20% or more of the entire earths population experience severe psychological problems such as depression and anxiety, and the majority of the world also lives without meeting their basic survival needs while a small percentage of us bathe ourselves in materialistic luxuries that ultimately don't seem to rid us of any of our problems in the long run, we're still just as depressed and pissed off - collectively - as ever. And despite all the very serious warnings that have been given, we are doing NOTHING about any of these things on a large scale!

Why?

It comes back to the same thing that has corrupted both science and religion, the real problem here... the common enemy... the desire for control, power, and greed... this entire system has been cleverly placed before our eyes through the form of government and currency and many other things.

So, while all of you theists and atheists are sitting here squabbling with each other over the SAME argument time and time again, which is debating the existence of a God and the afterlife and faith, etc, while you all are so engaged in this battle to see who is RIGHT... The world around you is being destroyed while a few very select people roll around in infinite piles of worthless green "tickets" that we value so highly in this society which have been made at your expense.

We should be using the positive moralistic aspects of religion/spirituality and the positive intelligent aspects of science/rationalism in a combined effort to confront our COMMON enemy which is the thing that really is the big issue here... desire for control, greed, and power.

So what about God? It's the same argument over and over. The rationalist/scientist will always demand definitive evidence of proof before he will believe in it, and the spiritual man will always have faith due to his experience which can not ever be communicated to the rationalist through our limited communication. It will be the same argument over and over, and neither is right or wrong, it's just a different perspective... so guess what - we're all going to have to wait until we die to see what's really going on, and at the rate things are going it might just be a little sooner than you'd think!

We are one... We are all human, we are all part of the same species, we rise as one, we fall as one. The future is in our hands... better hope we're up for the job.

So thank you very much for your time, this is something that has been bothering me immensely as I read this forum and many other debates across the internet.

And being the hippy that I am... I would like to end this little essay of mine with a poem... To use the word to communicate the intangible essence of my experience this structured essay will never be able to capture..


Gears turning always turning need to find the keys. Lost again within the sins we can't appease.... The machine of creation is spitting out dirt and it's high time it be cleaned but the keeper is out getting wasted today so he won't meet his deadline this eve. Forgot to do forgot to say forgot to remember to forget, when nothing in the world really matters we're all just bubbles in spit.
The harvesters are coming soon to reap the creations we sew and they won't be pleased to see what we have to show... So don't be bored if you find the time, write a song or give a dime, there's nothing in your way... except... well, and please don't take this the wrong way... but your the one keeping yourself from these things and it's time to see a new day.




Peace, Love, and light...

 

The problem isn't with science/rationality itself though, it lies with those who directly act in an irrational way towards others.

Religion/spirituality may bring good things, yes, but they are fundamentally flawed.

I am not responsible for the welfare of others.

It would be in my best interest to "live within my means", which I would happily do if such means were clearly defined.

 

Fundamentally flawed because they are irrational? You must understand that rationalism and irrationalism are co-dependence, as with all similar polarities...

Rationalism has it's place, it's very good for discovering things about our physical world in a very concrete way and it has it's moments in helping with descion making and all that jazz... but some times I like to get my feet a little wet you know? I like to bring on the craziest most irrational insane experiences I can, I like a little chaos... and the funny thing about the chaos... is sometimes it makes some of the most sense.

To me, the most interesting thing about what we call the mystical experience, is that on a large scale it only seems to happen to those willing to believe in it. I'm sure you can produce all sorts of fantastic data which rationally explains a psychological reason for this.. but the how does not explain the WHY. Mystical experiences are very interesting things, and you need to experience them before you can really draw any serious conclusions about them, which unfortunately also means keeping an open mind about them.

(when I talk about mystical experiences I mean full blown VISIONS, which is the source of most mainstream religion)

Either way... this was not the point of the post at all... this was not meant to be a debate about the validity of religion or science, etc... right now those things really don't matter.... the real issue I was trying to address with this post is the problematic situation we have put ourselves in and what we can do to fix it.

You are not responsible for the welfare of others... but we are collectively responsible for the welfare of ourselves, collectively... and as you may notice, collectively, we are not doing so fantastic right now... as a result some of us are going to need to try to help take care of the others a little bit if we're ever going to make this work.... so much damage has been done at this point, most people really don't understand what a serious situation we are in right now as a planet.