Donald Trump bans transgenders from serving in U.S. military

That's not what you said. You said that Target puts 0.03% of the population ahead of 99.97% of the others. Big difference.

Sure, lots of people have to take medication for medical issues. It's not an automatic disqualifier from military service.

I think you missed the part one line before:

The article goes on to explain that simply being transgender isn't enough of a reason to exclude them from the military, there must be something actively affecting their ability to perform. That is to say, it's possible to be transgender and serve..

I have no problem with excluding suicidal people from the military.

I'm sorry that you feel that way.

Sure it is. So let's ban the ones with mental problems, and that should settle it.

Generally, mentally incompetent people aren't allowed to join the military, so Trump making a point specifically about transgendered people tells me that there's some politics involved.

I have literally never said anything like this.

False equivocation. Being transgender is completely different than a white guy believing that he's black. The science is really clear on this.

If a depressed person thinks that they're really a wolf, does that make their depression invalid? You can be transgender and also believe something false.

 

Okay I dont feel like having to respond to each of these.

But I have already explained I think it is a STUPID move to make any real law for this. I can see there being some regulation, or at least a reevaluation of people in the military who are trans. You also say "The science is pretty clear about this", which Bill nye uses a lot.

The science IS clear on this. Transgenderism and gender dysmorphia are a mental problem and goes beyond the average depression. It is the idea that you feel that you are not the same sex as you are biologically.

The idea of Gender identification has now become something you choose sounds enlightening, but it is actually a unscientific view of the whole basis of life.

I DO NOT SUPPORT and all-out ban of transpeople from the military based on the facts I presented, but I do agree that people who suffer from this should be much more closely evaluated when entering the military, because it does pose serious threats to national security. Trump is just doing all this bullshit and its not cool to just outright ban them but again, I think that treating this as normal is actually not helping anything or anyone except for the person's feelings.

 

And no im not saying that, but If you are depressed and think you are a wolf, you are much more than depressed. You are suffering from a mental health issues that is fairly new, and mixed with it being about identity, in a world obsessed with gender indentification, it makes people believe that they should be left alone, nothing should be done, and they are normal and okay when they are not and Kill themselves at a a higher rate than any group of people in the world, and putting those people IN COMBAT is a bad idea... BUt I would love for them to server in other ways of course!

If there is a white male who has had a history of depression and suicidal tendencies, I would also not wan't him around his peers submerged in the most stressful and depressing environment on earth. But a ban IS stupid and I agree with you on that for sure!

 

If there was a history of trans people killing themselves spontaneously on the battlefield or taking a headshot mid-hormone injection on the front line like some of these prior posts would have you believe; I'd see his point. The exact same sentiments I've read above were the same thing people said about homosexuals, but hey, they're serving in the military with no fuss and no mental health issues.

The main basis of his actions are to cut down on costs associated with military healthcare. No other group of people with medical requirements are being targeted yet transgender people's hormones account for less than 0.1% of the military healthcare budget. If it really was a drain on funding, he could revoke their healthcare rather than straight kicking people out for needing medication...

Just like him meddling in what bathroom trans kids use at school was none of his fucking business and hadn't caused any issues up to that point; this is another baseless attack on a minority.

Why? Because Donald Trump's success relies upon the divide and conquer technique. Nobody can unite and stand against him when they're already fighting amongst themselves. Be it Mexicans, Muslims, immigrants, trans people or even the fake news media.. he's dividing his competition.

All the narrow minded bigots are helping him to, too.

 

If you can't respond, you shouldn't be on a debate forum.

No. Current medical science is literally 100% in disagreement with you. Refer to my earlier posts, or if you prefer, I can provide you with links about the mainstream scientific consensus.

Not according to medical science, sorry.

What threats to national security do they pose?

Absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect. Dangerously incorrect.

Reread my original post. I asked:

My point, which I thought was painfully clear, was that thinking stupid thoughts isn't intrinsically connected to being transgender.

I also have no idea what you're talking about when you talk about people being left alone (trans people should never be left alone), and telling them that nothing should be done (100% the opposite of what the trans-supportive community has ever done).

Also, obviously they have higher suicide rates than the general public - have you any idea of the stress a typical trans person goes through daily?

That paragraph tells me that you know nothing about transgendered people.

Thanks be to God. Let's keep any bans evidence based, yeah?

 

Sure, provide me with links from creditable sources that show that If you are born with the brain, muscle and bone structure, density, and sex organs, along with other parts of the human body of a man or a woman, that those people can somehow be "born into the wrong body", and it is justified without acknowdlging that it is a mental health issue, then I am glad to believe you. But remember, don't link me anything about "gender identify", because IDGAF what you identify as, I care about the scientific fact that A MAN CANT AND WONT EVER BE A WOMAN


The bottom line is that MEN ARE MEN, and WOMEN ARE WOMEN. Period. There should be no debate on this.


What's funny is that you said "medical science is in 100% dissagreement with you" which is not only impossible since science is the process of developing new ideas and hypothesis and trying to prove it wrong and wrong and wrong until it can be proven true, or the other way around, and there is actaully a huge divide within the scientific community on everything, even the idea that asteroids hit our planet and killed the dinosours... what exactly are you saying they are in disagreement with me on? Are you saying that "medical science" disagrees that transgender people suffer from gender dystrophia (note: I know not ALL trans people suffer from this, but for the most part they do, and transgender is really just a umbrella term, and can include multiple different groups of people, but I am specifically talking about a man or a woman who thinks or feels like they are not the SEX they were assigned)??

Are you saying the scientific community as a whole DOESNT think trangender people suffer from mental health problems? Because if you are, then that just ISNT true.. And btw, the sucide rate for trans people isn't so high because of the social pressure they endure, in fact, transgender suicide rate has only risen with the increase of actaully undergoing the surgery, and despite the insanely quick movement of our society to be MORE accepting and offering MORE services to these people.. And that points to some form of mental....

---(you misunderstood me and after releasing what I said makes me see why, but what I meant by "leaving these people alone", I didn't mean "don't help these people", I meant that people just disregard human biology and say "they have the right (which they do) to believe that they are whatever sex they want to feel that they are, but letting them think that this is a normal and okay thing to think is NOT helping them, it just isn't, and rising suicide rates prove that) ----

....health issues as well as underlying depression that may actaully cause the thoughts that the are the opposite sex than they are born as. Ever thought that maybe that's the case? Maybe they aren't depressed because they are transgender and will never feel like they will ever be who they want to be (because they biologically can't), but rather because there depression and mental health issues and other phycolohical factors CAUSED them to feel these tendencies..

"the normal sucicide rate across America is 4% (that's the high end and is more prevalent in higher income brackets), and the sucicide rate for trans people is right at about 40%... The idea that 36% more transgender people are killings themselves than the average American is due to bullying is simple ridiculous" - Ben Shapiro



Someone who is trangender believes they are the opposite sex as the one they were assigned (biologically, which is the only sex that matters). No surgery, hormone treatment, or therapy will EVER change your assigned chromosomes...sure, go ahead and identify as a man, woman, a dog, a cat, a cartoon character...IDGAF, but if you are going to sit here and tell me that I have to disregard human biology and believe it is "okay" (not morally but scientifically) to believe that a Man can be born into a Woman's body, then there is a huge problem there.

And yes, it is a unscientific way of thinking if someone who is born with the chromosomes and hormones of a Man, can be a woman by NATURE, because they think so...

I am NOT arguing the science for Gender Indentification, because that is DIFFERENT from people suffering from Gender dystrophia or the idea that you can can born into the wrong biological body, because it's simply not true

Here is a few links that may change your mind:

Psychiatry expert: ‘scientifically there is no such thing as transgender’

What Is Gender Dysphoria?

 

Also meant to post a video of Ben Shapiro, the most realistic person on earth, responding to this




And btw, when I said " I don't feel like responding to this" I specifically meant going through each quote and replying to it since sythe isn't well optimized on the phone to do this, and I was at work on IOS so it's hard

 

But anyway, the whole debate on this is

was trump right to ban transgender people from serving in the military?

NO

WHY?

Because every U.S. Citizen, regardless of there gender or beliefs or their political or religious views should be allowed, and encourages to actively participate in protecting the United States (unless they are specifically unable to as stated in U.S. Code)

BUT

I find it totally reasonable to believe that it bring up many underlying problems within the armed forces and believe that stricter recruiting for people who suffer from ALL mental illnesses, from depression, to PTSD, to believe that you are a Man when your Biological sex is a woman, because it is proven that not only do MOST of these people suffer from mental health issues, but also (sadly) have much higher rates of suicide or suicidal thought, and again, it seems very unwise to but these very (usually) unstable people (many of whom have to undergo constant hormone therapy, doctor visits, and therapy treatments) while transitioning and after transition, into the most stressful environment on earth.. WAR!

I couldn't care less what you identify as, I really couldn't care less, but seriously, there is no denying that this can bring up many issues within the armed forces.


And you also said "you obviously know nothing about transgender people" despite knowing someone who personally thinks that he was transgender since he was 5-6 and had to undergo a few years of therapy to understand why he was having those thought, and still does to this day. But even he can agree that there is no biologically way he is a woman, or can ever become a woman, or that him thinking he is a woman makes him one, and that's the main point I'm trying to prove.

 

Sorry for the typos. Auto-correct on IOS is somewhat compelte shit and typing fast to go to bed doesn't help

 

Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain?
Brain Imaging
Brain scans show trans people feeling at odds with their body
Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity - Science in the News

The science clearly shows that if the brain of a transgendered individual is NOT the same as their biological sex. This is all from a simple Google search. If it helps, imagine that your brain was transplanted into a body of the opposite gender. Try to imagine the frustration you'd feel.

The science is far more nuanced than you make it out to be.

A lot to unpack here, but what I'm saying is that the current position of medical science is that that being transgender is not a mental illness.

I didn't say that. I said that simply being transgender by itself isn't a mental illness.

Do you have a source on that? Specifically, a source showing that the transgender suicide rate INCREASES after transitioning? Because if you do, you could turn the medical world on its head, and probably win massive acclaim.

No, suicide rates aren't rising. Transitioning IS the treatment for transgender people.

This is incredibly facile. Depression doesn't cause you to believe that you're a different gender, but believing that you're a different gender and experiencing society's backlash can definitely cause depression.

First, MASSIVE clarification to make. The suicide ATTEMPT rate is 4% for normal Americans, and the suicide ATTEMPT rate for transgendered individuals. HUGE difference.

Second, if your argument is "well that sounds ridiculous", then you're not in scientific territory anymore, you're in the realm of personal emotions and feelings. Irrelevant.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue, then. Biological sex is one thing, these individuals believe that they are a different gender. This has been their argument since day 1.

Gender != sex.

There are lots of scientists in the world - enough that if you cared to search, you could find one who insisted that the world is 6,000 years old. Can you find a CONSENSUS that it's a mental illness?

That's the definition, yeah...but it says nothing about it being a mental illness.

I generally don't watch videos arguing the opposite point, because they're generally long, tedious, and boring. I did watch about 3 minute into it, however, and poor old Ben seems to think that gender is equivalent to biological sex. If he made any more profound points than that, please post them here.

That's fair enough, it's a bit tricky to do on the phone. I tried to find a good forum app for Sythe, but wasn't able to do so, sadly, so I have to wait until I'm back on US soil to post, lol.

 

“[Our experiment] doesn’t tell us why these differences exist, but we hope it adds to the medical understanding of gender identity and the importance that physical transition has to many individuals,” says Case.

and also

However, although Case’s study is interesting, we still don’t have enough information to identify trans and non-trans brains at the individual level, says Ivanka Berglund at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden. As a result, it isn’t yet possible to use scans to identify whether a child is trans or not, she says.


but also, what I find weird about this argument is that you are using an article that uses 3 studies. That does not mean that 100% of the scientific community agree with these studies.


but regardless, I would like to point out a HUGE mistake in this womans article that makes her look like a TERRIBLE journalist.

Her article states, "It has been conclusively shown that hormone treatment can vastly affect the structure and composition of the brain; thus, several teams sought to characterize the brains of transgender men and women who had not yet undergone hormone treatment. Severalstudies confirmed previous findings, showing once more that transgender people appear to be born with brains more similar to gender with which they identify, rather than the one to which they were assigned"

Well... If you click on the link, you will be brought here: White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study. - PubMed - NCBI


But here is the problem. She states that these transgendered people have white matter and brain structure more similar to the opposite sex. So she and the researches are concluding only that thesen transpeople have these feelings ONLY BEFORE hormanal therapy, but that's all.

The study does NOT conclude that transgender people are born with that same matter and brain structure, and could be the cause of multiple things like environment (which another article you posted stated), menatl health and development, among other factors. And again, im not arguing Gender Identification, but only that transgender people are just "born" that way.


I love how that article uses a few quotes from a few sources and pretends like it ends the debate.

She says "These individuals are not suffering a mental illness, or capriciously “choosing” a different identity. The transgender identity is multi-dimensional – but it deserves no less recognition or respect than any other facet of humankind."

Which leads me to my point. People like this, who isn't a scientist and who is just a journalist, tries to quote 3 out of proabbly hundreds and hundreds and then tries to through out that these people should be treated like its just normal human nature, and that if you disagree you are immoral, which is the whole point of this identity politics brought up by a soft, SJW culture. Maybe the science will get there, but it isn't.. No one knows where transgenderism comes from and that's just the truth. There is no way to tell rather someone will be born as a transgendered person, because it isn't something you are born with lik, idk... youur biological sex. That just isn't known and why should I throw out my basic view of biology and have to pretend that is is normal when I think (and know), it is not.

Identify as what ever the fuck you want idc, but I don't have to pretend like its normal and that most of these people don't need help.

 

Of course not. We've been able to find general differences between transgender and cisgender brains, but there's no "magic bullet".

Of course not - this is meant to be a sampling of scientific studies, to show you where mainstream science currently lies.

I'm afraid that you're misreading it, then. Let me quote their conclusion:

They're clearly saying that brain structure of biological women who identify as male is closer to a male brain than it is to a female brain.

To quote their last line:

Is there something I'm missing?

If you can find anything showing that it's a mental disorder, I'm all ears.

I'm not sure what you mean by SJW.

We DO know where transgenderism comes from. It's hard science. There's no such thing as a soul, there's no such thing as immaterialism, our brain 100% determines who we are. If you're born with a male brain in a female body, well, you're going to have problems. This is HARD science, I'm afraid.

You can believe whatever you like. I have a cousin who truly believes that the world is flat. It doesn't affect reality, however.

 

unless your transgender it should not really bother you. but i kinda agree with what trump has done i can understand both sides.

Its called brothers in arms

 

Why does the phrase "brothers in arms" mean so much to you? Are you aware that the military has allowed women to serve for decades? Are you against this?

I thought military personnel were focused on their jobs, not each others genitals. That's really weird and creepy, the way you describe it.

 

Well when their genitals aren't real and come from penis turned inside out after putting them on years of varying harmones with not enough scientific evidence and studies to show how this can effect the patient (phycologicaly) and then throw them into the death pit of war where we'll over 50% of soldiers leave the military suffering from PTSD or at least some type of other mental health issue can be a problem.

Ever thought about how a transgender person may react to a staff sergeant yelling in their face for various things like
- bed not perfect
- lent on clothing
- posture
- eye contact
- form during their exercises
- etc, etc, etc.

I'm not saying they aren't good enough for the job, nor am I denying their humanity, BUT, there is some merit to this and I can fully understand why trump wanted to "ban" them from the military, but I don't like "bans" on anything from the Government.


Anyway, I wanted you to read an experts opinion on this topic. I usually like to look at individual doctors with good backgrounds and studies to back them up rather than organizations because in all aspects of life companies and organizations do say things to please people or obtain money. That's not what I'm saying WHO and APA does, but it's possible.


(CNSNews.com) -- Dr. Paul R. McHugh, the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder.




Dr. McHugh, the author of six books and at least 125 peer-reviewed medical articles, made his remarks in a recent commentary in the Wall Street Journal, where he explained that transgender surgery is not the solution for people who suffer a “disorder of ‘assumption’” – the notion that their maleness or femaleness is different than what nature assigned to them biologically.




He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people. Dr. McHugh further noted studies from Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic of children who had expressed transgender feelings but for whom, over time, 70%-80% “spontaneously lost those feelings.”


While the Obama administration, Hollywood, and major media such as Time magazine promote transgenderism as normal, said Dr. McHugh, these “policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention.”



“This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken – it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.”




The transgendered person’s disorder, said Dr. McHugh, is in the person’s “assumption” that they are different than the physical reality of their body, their maleness or femaleness, as assigned by nature. It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh.

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This assumption, that one’s gender is only in the mind regardless of anatomical reality, has led some transgendered people to push for social acceptance and affirmation of their own subjective “personal truth,” said Dr. McHugh. As a result, some states – California, New Jersey, and Massachusetts – have passed laws barring psychiatrists, “even with parental permission, from striving to restore natural gender feelings to a transgender minor,” he said.




The pro-transgender advocates do not want to know, said McHugh, that studies show between 70% and 80% of children who express transgender feelings “spontaneously lose those feelings” over time. Also, for those who had sexual reassignment surgery, most said they were “satisfied” with the operation “but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery.”




“And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a ‘satisfied’ but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs,” said Dr. McHugh.


The former Johns Hopkins chief of psychiatry also warned against enabling or encouraging certain subgroups of the transgendered, such as young people “susceptible to suggestion from ‘everything is normal’ sex education,” and the schools’ “diversity counselors” who, like “cult leaders,” may “encourage these young people to distance themselves from their families and offer advice on rebutting arguments against having transgender surgery.”




Dr. McHugh also reported that there are “misguided doctors” who, working with very young children who seem to imitate the opposite sex, will administer “puberty-delaying hormones to render later sex-change surgeries less onerous – even though the drugs stunt the children’s growth and risk causing sterility.”




Such action comes “close to child abuse,” said Dr. McHugh, given that close to 80% of those kids will “abandon their confusion and grow naturally into adult life if untreated ….”



“’Sex change’ is biologically impossible,” said McHugh. “People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.”

 

I agree with certain points such as the surgeries etc but then I think about this... A transgender person is more likely to be susceptible to mental illness... 50 percent of transgender people have mental illnesses and nearly 40 percent of trans are estimated to have attempted suicide and one point or another... Why would we put someone who is more likely to be mentally unstable into a high stress situation? We are asking for something to go wrong by allowing them to join. In my opinion, we are doing them a favor although it may seem like a bash against them.

 

yeah this is basically what I said mixed with andy's view

 

So I'm going to assume from "their genitals aren't real", "penis turned inside out" (not all transgenders are MTF, and not all MTF have undergone surgery), your use of "varying hormones" and "not enough scientific evidence" (lol, what?)", your use of inaccurate statistics (How Common Is PTSD? - PTSD: National Center for PTSD), that you're probably not unbiased on this issue.

Like any other person?

I guess I'm fully lost on your train of thought there.

Actually, I'd say it's far more likely that a single doctor be corrupted than an entire organization. If you search hard enough, you can find any single doctor/scientist to support anything you want, from young-earth creationism, to climate-change being man-made, to the Earth being flat. In science, consensus is what matters. This is basic. That said, I'll look at the arguments.

Long shadow cast by psychiatrist on transgender issues finally recedes at Johns Hopkins

Johns Hopkins is moving on from this lone dinosaur. I'm sure he's a respected physician, but time makes fools of us all. I'm sure he's not the first doctor to be discarded.

If you had read the study, you'd know that he only compared the suicide rate of transgendered people post-surgery to the suicide rate of normal people - not to the suicide rate of transgendered people who hadn't undergone surgery, which seems like an obvious comparison to make. If you have data on the study where the children spontaneously lost their transgender feelings, I'd be glad to read it.

Wait a moment, is your entire argument based on one doctor? Do you not have any mainstream science to support your views?

Should nobody in the military get any surgeries or "extra" medications?

Well you're certainly entitled to your feelings, and there has never been an issue of anybody forcing their lifestyle on you (I'm not actually sure what you mean by that). Are you fully against taxpayer funded medical treatment of any kind?

Yeah...sources on any of those numbers? I had a good look for a while and couldn't find a thing.

 

On a phone so I can't easily trim to the points I want to address, but you really ought to not respond with logical fallacies. When I say that, I mean don't expand their argument beyond what the topic on hand is to be all inclusive (where Andy says he doesn't want his taxpayer money to treat them and you ask if he doesn't want his money to treat any medical issue). This doesn't stay on the topic, it relates transgenderism to more life threatening medical issues where, if not treated, the person may die. It's up to you to convince those opposed to transgender surgery why it may be similar to say a large wound, health complications such as diabetes, etc. Such as Andys first point to which you responded "Should nobody in the military get any surgeries or "extra" medications?" I'm going to venture to say most are either vital or simply supplementary and do not present any danger to the individual. When I view medication this, I think of maybe a Cholesterol reducing pills, where if you don't take those it could lead to health complications. Or like someone had a hernia, or appendicitis, and they need surgery to remove it. Why would not getting a transgender surgery and subsequent hormone pills lead to possible severe health complications? If you want to make that comparison, you need to convince me and provide evidence that it's like any other surgery and medicine. Basically: to make the comparison, bridge the gap between a want in my eyes (transgender surgery being like cosmetic surgery) to a need (surgery for a potentially life threatening ailment).

 

That would be a valid point IF the military only paid for essential healthcare. As it is, they spend far more money on Viagra/other erectile-dysfunction drugs than they ever would for transgendered people. So clearly, there's no actual concern about the financial burden on the military.

Twitter claims plenty costs more than transgender coverage

I'd also argue that sex-reassignment is not just "cosmetic".