The "War" in Iraq

Im leaving this thread, im not gonna talk to some guy bashing an American soldier and showing no respect. i dont have time for it.

 

I'm not bashing an American soldier. I commented that his argument was more of an appeal to the emotions than to logic, which is useless in this type of scenario.

Besides, logic is logic. That's all I use here. You should be able to answer it. If you can't, well...

 

But the point of the war was to gain control of Iraq's oil supply so that the prices could be controlled, to the point where the oil companies made the maximum profits.

 

3600+ American lives isn't a huge toll to pay for a war that has lasted about 6 years. 500 Lives lost a year isn't bad at all, there are over 100x more murders in U.S. alone.

 

Because in the "war", only Americans have been killed, there has been no collateral damage, and no money whatsoever was spent.

Bah. Some 700,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed.

Also, you speak of the American lives lost like it was nothing. I'm sure you would have no problem being one of those killed, then?

 

I agree with you. Like maybe the Al-Qaeda situation could have been held in another manner instead of total war. They just should have had secret special operations to take them down...

 

I wouldn't. I am becoming a U.S. Special Forces officer. Joining the U.S. Army Reserves next September at 17 to start my career.

By the way, around the same number of Iraqi civilians would have been killed even if we had not invaded.

 

So, if there was somebody next to you right now, with a gun to your head, and told you that you were one of the people who had to die in this war, you would be simply fine with that?

It's interesting how people conjure images of their own bravado in dangerous situations, but when the time actually comes, their minds break, and they cower and run.

Saddam Hussein killed some 200,000 civilians since the 1980's. We've killed 700,000 in the last four and a half years. What do you have to substantiate your claim?

 

yea this war is bullshit. its not even a war. its trying to dominate the eastern world and mostly Oil.

i agree with you completly shredder, everyone acts all big and bad but when it comes down to it there pussys.

 

As cruel as this may sound, the answer is very simple... A hope. The African countires have SO many problems in terms of disease, lack of education, and a general insufficiency of things today we consider neccesities. Removing a poor leader won't fix sanitiation, disease, education, etc. I'm by no means trying to say we should just ignore them and there is no hope of fixing them ever, but the project is so big that for the points and purposes of your arguement it would be unrealistic. Oh, and many African countries do have oil. I even thing that it might have been Chad, not 100% on that, but one of those countries to avoid the corrupt money made a deal with the oil companies that they would be in charge of bulding things to help the communities they drill in. Many now have hospitals, schools/meeting areas, and more. The problem there is obviously fixing a bit...

All I have to say at this point for the record (because I am too tired to counter the points in here) is that saying it is "The Republicans" or "George Bush" who is doing this is such an ignorant statement its not even funny. Congress (which is Democratic in majority) could have us out of there right now if they wanted to. Seems like they don't care or want to stay, either way, claiming its either one is foolish.

Same with oil. The war is NOT ABOUT OIL. There is tons of oil in South America, Africa (which I bet because of the general corruption we get pretty cheap). I will agree it probably played some factor, but it wasn't all about it. We had multiple Democratic presidents take us to war before against people that didn't attack us directly (remember WWII and especially Vietnam and Korea?).

 

I see the constant argument of oil coming up as the basic sole reason for the way continuing and to of ever started.

If we wanted the oil and that was the sole reason for it, why would we help them create a government of the people, why would we help them rebuild in some parts. And why on earth, WOULD WE STILL BE PAYING FOR THE OIL WE RECEIVE FROM THEM. Please tell me.

 

I say one thing ill probably get flamed but all of the facts were talking about are from the news and newspapers we as civilians do not KNOW the plans of what the President does or the way that he thinks maybe what he does know will end up helping us somehow it may not seem like it now but some way theres a reason for everything so just go with it. He wont listen to some Runescapers to stop a war.

 

Hey, great idea. Maybe the people in Congress should say that too? Why use checks and balances when we can all just sit tight, close our mouths, and turn that thing that says United States of America into "The United States of Texas and a few other con'fusin states". As much as I'd like for people to shut up about it, what you're saying is just rediculous.

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Dorito makes a good point about oil as well.

 

Finnaly the UK is pulling out of Iraq, admittedly because of a useless PM who is trying to do anything possible to regain his reputation, but we are finnaly out of this "war" zone.

 

Every single day the american troops are responsible for more than 500 killings worldwide. And yet america is still crying about what hapend 9/11, even though they are killing the same amount daily.
And even after 9/11, it was the american people who chose Bush as their solution for what is called "terror".
They knew that the "terrorists" would only become stronger if bush was chosen.
There would be more people, in the asian countries suporting the "terrorists", if bush was chosen. They knew how his farther was, and how he was going to rule america. Not even was he chosen the first time, but also the second!

Then bush sends 400.000 american soldiers to iraq. I think everybody suports that. But then as soon as he got into iraq, he showed his true self, the self that the american people knew before the war, but yet the rest of the world was about to experience and see.
America was suposed to help iraq, but yet they started the war by ruining and demolishing iraq fully! Schools, hospitals, and who knows! All was bombed and ruined, EVEN THOUGH there were no iraqi soldiers fighting agaisnt america.
The saddam regime did not fight against america, how should they, when america are attacking from above.
So america bombed and ruined the country, which they were suposed to safe!
Now is that a good way of starting this?
And this is not only in iraq, but in all other muslim countries taken over by the american troops.

Now imagine your house being ruined, your child, wife or perhaps people who you know being killed around you, for no reason! And when you ask why, they simply say "they were terrorists".
You know who killed your friends and familly, and yet those people are demanding of you to help them out.
Would you help the the people out who the day before ruined your country and killed the people you loved?
Ofcourse you wouldnt, instead, anyone who dares to fight against those people, you would suport.
In this case, that person who dares to fight against america is Osama Bin Laden.
And now america and the wester countries are going to run out of the country, in the middle of the war!!!
THAT IS WHAT I HATE MOST! THEY STARTED THIS WAR, AND THEY DO NOT WANT TO END IT!!!!!!!

I know that he is killing "civilians" all though they arent in my opionion.

For him Osama Bin Laden to kill civilians, makes him a terrorist.
But for america and bush to kill muslim civilians, does not make them terrorist?

That dosent sound right! Therefor I do not look at Osama Bin Laden as an terrorist.
If the rest of the world, and looked as bush and who ever suports him, as terrorists, I would call Bin Laden for an terrorist aswell.
But when noone looks at bush and the americans suporting him, as terrorists, why the hell should I look at Bin Laden as an terrorist.

This is an war! Civilians die! America are killing civilians all over the world eveyr single day. Osama is killing civilians in america, lets say once every 5 years.
And yet his the one being called a terrorist, rather than bush and his suporters.

Bin Laden is only giving back to america what they are giving to the muslim countries every single day! His impact to america though, cannot even be compared to the impact america is doing to the muslim countries every single day.

So for some one to, cry over 9/11, I simply find pathetic!
I am sorry for the people who died, but thats what hapends in a war!
And those same "civilians" chose bush twice!! Only a small percentage of the american people, do not suport bush.
I know that there are moe who dont like him, but that isnt because of what his doing to the muslim countries, but because they want their sweet little soldiers back home to safety.

So only an small percentage of the american people, trully hates bush, and I suggest that those people should move out of the country, since they are surounded with danger. They have the money to do it for shure.

I am trully sorry for those "civilians" who died in 9/11, but I am also sorry for the civilians who are being killed every single day world wide, by the american soldiers.

Now 95% of americans, are only sorry for those who died in 9/11, but dont even think about how many their government and perhaps them selfs are responsible for every single day.

I dont know really, but this is currently how I think about this, and I doubt it will change.

And even before bush and his farther, america were responsibel for over 300.000 deaths in hiroshima and nagasaki.

And yet, if any other counry wants to produce nuclear weopens, they wont allow it, even though they are the only ones who ahve ever used a nuclear weopen in the history of mankind!!

America should be the last country to be asked for permission for production of nuclear weopen.
2 atomic bombs should be thrown into america, and 300.000 deaths, before they can even give permission to any other country in the world to produce nuclear weopens.

I dont know really. The world is a complicated thing these days.
I wish we could all just live together without having to kill each other.

 

I'd like to see the source of that fact.

Yes, the US is still crying, wait, what? No, they really aren't. We are killing the same amount daily? First you said we are responsible for around 500 killings worldwide daily, yet the 9/11 attacks killed several thousand, so which is it?

Terrorists are becoming stronger solely because Bush was elected again? No. How have them been becoming stronger? If anything, they are becoming weaker. How is it you keep saying the America people knew all this, yet still elected Bush. If they indeed believe all your opinionated biased statements which you call facts, they wouldn't of.

Once again, I'd like to see sources on all of this, because it seems to me you are simply pulling words out of the air. Explain how there is more people in those counties supporting terrorism, once again, solely on Bush being elected.

Oh, here we go again with the AMERICAN PEOPLE KNEW BUT STILL line you seem to use over and over again. What was his true self, I'm sure I'll find out in the next paragraph...

We were supposed to help Iraq, and WE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN. Once again, pulling facts out of the air. We started ruining and demolishing Iraq fully? First, THINGS WERE RUINED, congratulations you got your first fact right, but the second part, not so much. Most were damaged by Iraq's own people, by either bombing the US troops when they were moving about, or by simply killing their own citizens because of raged Islamic extreme terrorists who think killing others in the name of their god makes them holy.

We are building schools for them, we are building hospitals, that can actually help people considering the ones they used to have, you were better off NOT going too. We are giving food and drink to citizens, we are building up their government. How are we destroying it? Obviously things will get ruined if we bomb it, no one but an idiot would deny that fact. But anything that was lost, was REBUILT, BY THE US.

Sudam Husein has been doing that exact thing you said above, FOR MANY YEARS, UNTIL, the US took him out of office, if you could even call it an office. It was a dictorship, the only people who benefited from it, or who WEREN'T opposed to it, were the people that were very close to him, or held some sort of power. If you didn't have one of those two, YOUR LIFE WAS A TERRIBLE ONE.

There hasn't been a single innocent civilian killed in Iraq with purposeful intention behind it. If they get caught in cross fire, OR GET KILLED BY IRAQ'S OWN EXTREMISTS by sending car bombs, or shooting rockets into the air, HOW IS THAT THE US's fault? It isn't mate.

No US troops have simple rampaged a house of civilians and then killed them off, get your facts straight, or atleast get a source.

Once again, your opinions, far from facts. Are you actually saying what Osama Bin Laden has done and is doing is right? Wow, you really need to seek some professional help if you feel that way.

I say once again way too much, but, let's see, I don't know, AGAIN, you say we are going to run out in the middle of the war, when we have said again and again we are there to stay until everything is settled. We started it, and we will end it, I will guarantee you that.

You're right, everyone who died in September 11th attacks are bad, bad people right? Osama was just doing us a favor...

Osama purposely killed civilians for NO REASON. Yet the US hasn't killed a single one just randomly, or because the troops got bored so they decided to start picking people off one by one. You are actually making a direct comparison of Bin Laden and Bush, and saying Bush is more of a terrorist then Bin Laden. Like I said above some where, seek professional help now.

This is a war, you are correct, and once again, civilians do die, you are correct. But, now you just made a comparison saying Bin Laden only kills people once every few years and the US kills people constantly. Are you actually saying that he kills fewer so he's better? Killing is wrong, period, no one goes YAY, we got once, if a US solider kills someone that is firing at them.

The only time a US solider shoots is if there are people attacking them in the first place, or the people are posing a serious threat. You make it sound like the troops just walk down the streets humming while shooting randomly at people.

Is only giving back? How can you even say that? Facts out of thin air again. Bin Laden's actions are always for the betterment of himself and the few people around him, all his actions could and are classified as terroristic, the US's however, are not, they are working as a betterment of a whole, they are trying to get Iraq to get back on its feet, and stand by itself, and for itself.

Yet just above, you were stating that innocent civilians shouldn't be killed. Contradicting yourself much?

There's actually a large percentage of US citizens who don't support Bush, get your facts straight for the 53rd time. Not even going to bother to comment on the rest...

It's sure, and they aren't surrounded, yes, that actually is how you spell it, with danger. They are safer in the US than almost any other country. I don't exactly see Iraq as a hot tourist spot...

Bundle all that to this response, as it's getting a bit long. If you are truly sorry, you'd understand the point of this way. You keep saying over and over again that the US troops basically kill people for the sole reason of killing them, WHEN THEY HAVE NEVER, AND WILL NEVER do that.

Yet the Iraqi extremists, DO, kill innocent civilians, THEIR OWN PEOPLE, for the sole reason to show their power and/or for just the sake of killing them.

You said 95% of the American people are sorry, facts again please, because you don't seem to have any.

Your opinion on the nuclear weapons. Do you realize why we don't give countries like Iraq or Iran permission to produce nuclear weapons? Because there's a 99% chance they'd just be turned around and used on us. Why would we give such an unstable country like Iraq or Iran with hundreds, if not thousands of terrorist groups still roaming the streets, ACCESS TO NUCLEAR WEAPONS of mass destruction, tell me please?

You're right, the world is a complicated thing, and you obviously don't even have the least bit of understanding about it.

 

1.What is it with sources and you. That is something everyone knows.
If it wasent for americans invading other countries, iraqi people and afghani wouldnt be dying! The so called terrorists are fighting against america.
If there were no troops, there would be no people to suport them, if there arent any to suport them, there would be no deaths.
Im not saying that american soldiers are directly killing 500 people a day, but that they are responsible! I explained why above.

2.The first one, I only wrote that to get it idea of it into peoples heads.

3. "Terrorists" are getting stronger because more and more people are suporting them, after seing what bush and his troops are doing to their country and family.
The people knew it the first time, after having seen his farther, and bush him self speak about it. And they for shure knew it the second time.

4. Back to the source thign eh. What do you expect of an source?
Some one saying, that america might have known how bush would be as?
What kind of source is it you want! There is no source! Its not a fact!
America knew how bush was before he was elected the first time, after having seen his farther, and bush him self speak.
And they elected him the second time, after knowing how he was 100%.

5. -

6. You were suposed, but never did! Its not facts out of the air, its something everyone knows. Wouldnt I know whats hapening in Iraq? The whole world knows!

Why would the iraqi people bomb some helping soldiers, whos intentions were aperantly good? They werent helping! Some fought them becuase of what they were doing to the country and people. Why the hell would some one fight without any reason at all. And again, if the us troops werent in iraq, those people fighting them would not have to fight them, meaning that the small percantage of ruins in iraq wouldnt have bin from them.
And dont even mix Islam with terrorists! People who claim they are doing it for islam, and that islam sais to do so in iraq, are simply morons.
Especially in Iraq, where religion has no role these days.
Killing some one does not make your holy, wether it is for Islam or not.
So learn about the religion before u speak.
The "terrorists" are only killing the "civilian people" becuase of the fact that they are helping the american troops. Those same soldiers who ruined iraq and killed and tortured the people.

Your not building anything! The iraqi people are the ones building! Not your soldiers! And yet the troops were the same people who bombed those hospitals and buildings.
The old hospitals and schools, were way better. Thats yet another thing that any seing person would know. The old hospitals had everything they needed, and the iraqi students were getting the best grades worldwide at that time.
Give me YOUR source that sais, the old iraqi hospital and schools were wors than the current.

You are not giving food or anything to the people, its their own food.
And what you call drink? Have you gived them clean water?
The people are drinking the most dirty water, I know it, I was there, and it wasent just were I was, but where ever I went, you would need to boil it.
You would barely have money for food. And give me YOUR source that sais, americans are providing with clean water and proper food to the people.

You are not rebuilding the government. Is handing over the government in Iraq to shiits a good thing? What you call the closed cage in Bagdad, where the sunni area in bagdad are caged, and have no acces to the outside world.
Under the saddam regime, kurds/shiits and sunnis would have the same rights!
Now when shiits are ruling, sunnis cannot decide anything at all, and are treaten very badly.
Your destroying the country by doing what your doing! By torturing the people, and then claiming they are terrorists. By arresting people.
By shooting at people. And dont even ask for a source. this is the clearest fact of the war. Everybody knows the prisoners are being tortured, killed, and being treated badly. If u insist on moving proves, just go to youtube, and you´ll see, the nice american soldiers beatin the people, shooting at civilians in the streets, and making childrens fight each other for money, to buy FOOD, which you claim america is providing for them.
Nothing was rebuild by the US! Only the iraqis are rebuilding, so dont come up wiht such lie.

7. This is an factor that you dont know a thing about. I lived under the Saddam regime! I know how it was!

Saddam would treat who ever listened to him and obeyed him nicely.
Who ever did NOT listen to him, would be killed.
But why not listen to him, when what he trully said was the best for the iraqi people. The only people who had the right not to obey him was the kurds in the north.
In the early days of the saddam regime, Saddam started by talking to the kurdish generals, about border lines between Kurdistan and Iraq.
As the only country in the world! He letted the kurds speak their own language, and have their own country, unlike turkey and many other countries.
Problem was that, Saddam believed the border should be behind the city of Kerkuk, but the Kurdish people believed that the border should be outside the city of Kerkuk.
The specific city had much oil under it, which was why Saddam was interested in it, but truth was that 80% of the porpulation was kurds, and only 20% arabs. Yet Saddam wanted that city, and the Kurdish general refused to give it to him. And so the conflict between the Saddam Regime and the Kurdish general (Peshmergas) began. But even under that war, Saddam treated the kurds who did hot take part of the conflict nicely, but only those that helped the Kurdish generals badly.

Not that I defend his punishment of those people, cuz I believe that he had no right to kill those people because of that, but only saying becuase I want to make it clear that, SADDAM NEVER ACTED WITHOUT A REASON.
In this case, those people were helping the Kurdish generals who were fighting his army.
Under the Saddam regime, Iraq was going through its best times, this is not something you would know, but only a true iraqi would know. I KNOW!
The shiits hate Saddam purely because he fought against the Iran, when they triet to take over Kuwait, and afterwards Iraq. And even during that war, Saddam refused to start the war! He made it clear that he would only attack if Iran went over the iraqi border.
If it wasent for Saddam, Iraq would be shiit, which is why the shiits hate Saddam, not because they were treated badly, but because they wanted iraq to become shia! Which is also why they are helping the americans, since they are the ones who gave the the power to rule iraq!
I explained why the kurds hate Saddam above.
The sunnis do not hate Saddam, but simply dont like what he did to those who turned against him.

8. This one of those facts that you can watch on youtube, with videos of american soldiers, abusing the people, makign chilrens fight each other for food, shooting peoples cars and the people in the streets, and beating the childrens and mens.
Those being killed by car bombs, are the people who are helping the americans. I do not look at them as civilians. And it is the US fault. If they werent there, they would not be suported, if they would not be suported, the people would not be killed by the others.

Yet again. Go to youtube, you will see the horrifull videos. I can link some to you.

9. The answer to this question is not for me to decide, but for you and the americans to decide. If they find what bush and their troops are doing in iraq, for right, they will have to find what osama is doing for right aswell.
I cant say that I find what osama is doing right, since I simply dont suport killing of "civilians". But I look at what bush is doing the same way as what bin laden is doing, if not worse, since his doing a way bigger impact.
In my opionion your the one who needs to seek help, since you look at what bin laden is doing for wrong, but yet look at what bush is doing for good.

I hope that you can keep your promis. I personally dont think you can, but deebly hope so. Only time can show the answer for this.

10. Osama is not doing you a favor. I just dont look at those people as fully civilians! They chose bush twice, knowing that its his fault all this is hapening!
But stil... Cant say they are all bad! But 95% werent fully civilians.

11. Your putting your self in chess mate, by saying this.
This one of those things, that you can simply watch on youtube.
American soldiers are filming them selfs, shooting at peoples cars, and the people in the middle of the streets, from the roofs. They are makign childrens fight for food, while filming it and posting on youtube for a good rate.
And YES! I am making an DIRECT comparement of Bin laden and bush, and saying bush is more of a terrorist than bin laden.
And agaim, in my opionion your the one who needs to seek help, since you refuse to admit that what bush and his troops are doing is bad.
And osama killed "Civilians" for a reason. He was against the jewish state in Palestine, and besides that, against 80% of what america has done in the past. As I´ve said, all this didnt start when bush came, it started before him.
America has always bin killing civilians.

12. It dosent make him better, but many factors such as torturing by the americans and their treating of their prisoners, is only making him better.
And besides that, he did not start this, america did.
I fully agree, that killing is wrong. I would deebly hate Bin Laden, if Only you hated those bad soldiers and Bush.

Yet again your putting your self in chess mate.
Yes, some do just walk around and pick a random person and start shooting at them. Its called YOUTUBE. And its not fake! Its in iraq, the people are speaking arabic, and the soldiers american, and even admitting and admireing what they are doing, and how acurat they are shooting.

13. I stand by what I said. And doont even start on the fact shit. No fact can prove this. Bin ladens actions are not for him self! If it was for him self, he would be living like bill gates, surounded with womans around him, and what ever he thinks of. His a multi billionaire you know.
What his doing is for the his people, and purely for them!

I doubt they are even trying. Again, its called YOUTUBE!

Iraq did stand by it self, under the saddam regime, and went through it greatest times.

14. They shouldnt be killed, but when they are killed, its not soemthing to cry over in 6 years, when same amount are being killed many times a year as a result of the american invasion. Its an war! Civilians are and will be killed.
That dosent mean I suport it though. but unlike the american troops having the resources to prevend civilians from getting killed directly from thier attacks, Bin laden dosent.

15. Read this part of my comment again, and u might understand.

16. Did I perhaps say, Iraq? America is the biggest target for Bin Laden. Perhaps move to a smaller thread for Bin Laden.

17. Yet again, the us soldiers are killign civilians for the simpel reason of wanting to. ITS CALLED YOUTUBE, and it shows how well you trully know your sweet soldiers.

The iraqi people do not kill civilians! They kill those who are helping the americans! Thats not being civilians and neutral.

95% is an guess, but I think its realistic. I´ve never heard of american people demanding the american troops back home, simply because of how they are behaving towards the iraqi people.

Firstly, noone is talking about iraq and nuclear weopens now. Iraq was highly stabel before the invasion, its not anymore!

Iran do not have any terrorist groups at all!!!! Give me YOUR source, stating that there is 99% chance it would be thrown i the US.
The Iranian government, have clearly said that they will not produce any nuclear weopens out of i, but... you know the rest.
If Iran have said and promised that, then there is no more for the US to say regarding this. Perhaps the UN can say something or the other countries in the world, but for shure not the US.
And lets say iran is filled with terrorist groups. Waht the chance for the terrorists to steal an jet, and fill it with highly expensive fuel, and "steal" and nuclear weopen, not to mention finding it, and fly the whole way to the US and throw it down? Up to you to decide.

I know more than you about the world. At least I admit what Bin Laden is doing is not good, unlike you refusing to admit how bad bush is, but instead keep your fantasy image of the US army, as angels, who are in Iraq to safe the people.


And dont even talk about my english. I am not english, so why the heck should I learn to speak it as an true american, when I dont even live in an english country. And especially at a such young age that I am.

You dont know anything about your government, or sweet little brave soldiers. Or the Saddam regime, or Iran, or while we are there the whole middle east, why not the world.

 

Yeah I agree that this is true in some ways..

 

Its like world wars.
Abunch of people fighting over nothing.
In my point of view, Most Of the terroists who caused 9/11 are out of war.
Thats damn funny we r still fighting?

 

What ways dont you agree with me??

I cannot see any possible ways that what I am saying is wrong.
Spit it out, and let me comment.

And just to notify you Dorito, im only 15! And yet can still keep up an conversation with, an perhaps 20+ year old. Dunno, important thing is, that at the age of 15 I know the full story of my country, my people, my religion, and how "good" america is. And im not brainwashed. I live in a free country, were I can do what ever the fuck I want to, but I chose unlike many others to learn the history of my country, people and vice verca.
Unlike you, that still at the age of, who knows, still havent admitted how bad your government has always bin, and how bad your sweet "brave" soldiers are.

How is it like the world wars?
I see it as a fight for freedom. Human rights for muslims are slowly being reduced in my opionion, and fighting for my people is something I believe is worth the trouble for.
What you mean by "terrorists" are out of the war.

And again. The only reason I say "terrorist", is simply because noone of you guys so far, puts the word "terrorist" instead of the US army, or bush.
Once that hapends, I will change "terrorist" to terrorist.