N.d.e

So, while some of these "drug and body stress" experiments have produced certain "elements" found in the NDE, and it is understandable that they would. There is no biological argument for science just because they can give drugs, or apply gravitation forces to the body that stop the blood flow to the brain, which then causes a person to experience some "elements" of the NDE. Heart attacks do the same thing. It is just a difference of method, fortunately the centrifuge or drugs can be stopped quickly, a heart attack usually can not. None of these G-Force stresses or drugs have actually duplicated a full-blown NDE.


The only way science could (might) produce a real NDE is to take the subject into clinical death. I saw an account of this on television (A&E). A patient's body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees and the heart stopped so surgery could be done on a brain aneurism. All the blood was drained from the patient's body effectively bringing her body into clinical death. At which point she left her body, looked down upon it, and observed the instruments being used in the operation. When she was revived, more than an hour later, she described the instruments used, and the surgery in detail. The surgeon was amazed, but believed her due to the accurate account she gave. She was certain the experience was real and spiritual. She had the experience independent of her clinically dead body. Her brain showed no activity on the EEG, nor any brain stem activity. She had been clinically dead for almost two hours.

"Such is the case of Pam Reynolds who is quite well known in the NDE community. She was having surgery performed to remove an aneurism from her brain. Her body was cooled to below 60 degrees F. and all of the blood was drained from her brain. Her EEG and brain stem response showed no activity, the definition of brain death in many states. During all of this, she reported rising from her body and seeing the operation performed below her. She also reported contact with "The Light" and many of her deceased relatives. Remember, she had no brain activity whatsoever. Even hallucinations register brain activity. It is interesting that upon recovering she recounted accurately many details of her operation, including conversations heard and a description of the surgical instruments. It has been postulated by a NDE skeptic, that Pam overheard the sounds in the room and generated a "mental map" of things around her. What the skeptic failed to acknowledge though is that instruments were inserted into Pam's ears that generated clicks to measure brain stem response. Her brain stem response throughout the surgery was inactive. If conversations were heard, her brain stem response should have registered them."

So, yes and no: Yes, science could (might) produce a NDE if the conditions (clinical death) for having one were met. But, no, these scientific experiments have not shown NDEs are biological in nature. There is no research showing memory and/or consciousness is biological. Think about it. Memory of all the events in our life would have to be huge. Yet, brain cells are all alike, if biological memory were there it should be easy to see some changes or coloration differences in the memory cells.

According to Pam, she was present, above her body, viewing the whole surgical operation, her consciousness, memory, personality; her whole individuality intact. She proved this with an accurate, detailed description of the instruments, conversation, and procedures used during the surgery. At the same time science, using scientific monitoring instruments, was proving that her body was dead. No brain response, no heart response, no response of any kind. Obviously, the brain nor any other organ of the body was needed to sustain her life, and this account is just one example of the hundreds that exist in the NDE literature.

I believe this is as conclusive as proof gets. Clear, solid proof that man is a spiritual "being" inhabiting a physical body. I hope that in the future, scientists and others concerned with NDEs will consider this preponderance of evidence before telling the general public, or experiencers that NDEs are just biological events. In that manner humankind can benefit from this "knowledge of self" in many ways, and get on with its spiritual growth.

We are all familiar with the picture of a doctor showing a brain model, while pointing out the locations from which the brain handles hearing, sight, and movement of body parts. Recently doctors have shown us where memory, recognition and other intangible items are located in the brain.

If this were true then the brain could be said to be hard-wired and understandable. But the brain is not hard-wired, it is unique to each person.

Scientists can not say, in any given brain, where any function resides. This makes each brain as unique as its owner. It indicates the brain does not control the body, but that "something" is controlling the brain that makes it unique to each person. That something is "you." The spiritual you is giving the orders and the brain carries them out.

Now if the brain is damaged in a certain area, sometimes another part of the brain can be trained to do the job. This is common with stroke victims. This retraining is also indicative of a controller for the brain.

However, sometimes the brain is damaged so the spirit control can not use it for certain things. The person may seem to lose their memory, or other functions, but it is only because the brain is aged or damaged. There is nothing wrong with the spirit, just that it can't "get through" any more.

There is an excellent study on Brain Mapping taking place at UCLA. This study will help you to understand it.

Something controling/powering the brain? yep.

Information from www.aleroy.com

If scientists did find out it would rip the fabric of science which would lead to choas. . . .. . . . . .. . . let alone money loss lol.

As an afterlife experience

Some see the NDE as an afterlife experience. They believe that the NDE cannot be completely explained by physiological or psychological causes, and that consciousness can function independently of brain activity.[25] Many NDE-accounts seem to include elements which, according to several theorists, can only be explained by an out-of-body consciousness. For example, in one account, a woman accurately described a surgical instrument she had not seen previously, as well as a conversation that occurred while she was under general anesthesia.[26] In another account, from a proactive Dutch NDE study [2], a nurse removed the dentures of an unconscious heart attack victim, and was asked by him after his recovery to return them. It might be difficult to explain in conventional terms how an unconscious patient could later have recognized the nurse.[27]

Dr. Michael Sabom reports a case about a woman who underwent surgery for an aneurysm. The woman reported an out-of-body experience that she claimed continued through a brief period of the absence of any EEG activity. If true, this would seem to challenge the belief by many that consciousness is situated entirely within the brain.[28]

A majority of individuals who experience an NDE see it as a verification of the existence of an afterlife.[29] This includes those with agnostic/atheist inclinations before the experience. Many former atheists, such as the Reverend Howard Storm[30][31] have adopted a more spiritual view after their NDEs. Howard Storm's NDE might also be characterized as a distressing near-death experience. The distressing aspects of some NDE's are discussed more closely by Greyson & Bush (1992).

Greyson claims that "No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE. The paradoxical occurrence of heightened, lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion raises particular perplexing questions for our current understanding of consciousness and its relation to brain function. A clear sensorium and complex perceptual processes during a period of apparent clinical death challenge the concept that consciousness is localized exclusively in the brain."[32]

Research on NDEs occurring in the blind have also hinted that consciousness survives bodily death. Dr. Kenneth Ring claims in the book "Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind" that up to 80% of his sample studied reported some visual awareness during their NDE or out of body experience.[33] Skeptics however question the accuracy of their visual awareness[34]

In infrequent instances there is ambiguity between medical and spiritual facts. There exist reports about connections between deceased persons and persons who have had an NDE. Ken Mullens (1992;1995), who was clinically dead for more than 20 minutes, reported spiritual encounters in his life after his NDE. As he reported, deceased persons he communicated with were often unknown to him, but were connected to people he met at a later point. While such reports are discredited by skeptics, others maintain that they remain a mystery. Since they have no apparent medical or physical explanation they are said to belong to the interpretative and phenomenological dimension of the NDE, as investigated by the field of Near-death studies.

NDE's can also lead to long-lasting spiritual effects (as evidenced by the many studies which confirm the experience as having taken place during clinical death). The mathematician John Wren-Lewis (1985), after his NDE, felt himself in a more or less permanent state of equanimity, feeling contact with the void and with no separate existence from the whole.

Information http://wikipedia.org/ sorry for double post but it's too much text.

 

What the hell

 

Please do not spam this, this is a very important matter. Reported.

 

Hmm I find this fairly interesting although it makes too many assumptions about the brain, which we don't know everything about. I would think that these experiences are caused by brain death affecting different parts of the brain at different speeds. While they may have put instruments to measure brain activity on the patient, the brain is dying, which could slow down brain activity until it came to a near complete stop, possibly in different areas of the brain at different times. Maybe when they were measuring the brain stem, brain stem activity had already stopped, and another part of the brain took over. I see this as underdeveloped tools more than actually being out of your body. There are so many questions to ask that can't be answered yet, so the assumption of a non-physical entity apart from the brain controlling the brain is unfounded.

I also think it makes way too many assumptions on the subject of the different parts of the brain in different people meaning that there is something else controlling it. The human body is genetically designed to survive. The brain has to be able to adapt to its situation or the body would die and not get to breed. Its no accident that parts of the brain can be trained to do the work of another, such as in stroke victims. Its part of the way we have evolved.

Another one of my reasons for thinking that our brain isn't controlled by a spirit is getting knocked unconscious. Every time that I've been knocked out, I was just that. Knocked out. I had no memory of anything that happened while I was out. It felt like everything went black, and then everything returned to normal right after, except that in reality a few minutes had passed by. If there were a non-physical entity controlling me apart from my physical brain, I should have some visions or shit like that when I'm out.

 

Being knocked out, is not the same as being dead.

 

My point was that when you get knocked out, you're brain stops working because its jarred. When the brain stops working, you lose concsiousness. If there were a non-physical entity controlling your brain, you being conscious wouldn't be affected by the physical brain being damaged.

 

Still, it's still working. I personally find alot of truth in NDE. Like a woman who had been blind her whole life, and saw the whole surgery, descried the tools, and the operation, the faces of the people, etc. Not alot to argue against there.

 

It said she was blind her whole life?

 

Now I see why athiest don't post here, they cannot disprove this thread. No offence.

 

yeah, being knocked otu is just sleeping, dead is gone forever

 

I find it funny how atheist are staying away from this thread.

sms-100 - True that.

 

As I explained before, the reference to being knocked out was meaning as in losing consciousness due to damage to the brain. Try to understand the post before critiquing it.

It can't be disproven because because there hasn't been enough research done on it to know if theres any truth behind it. Its all just speculation.

 

Ah everything is "speculation" with you atheist huh? Just a coincidence? Wake up and smell the coffee, this universe isn't what it seems, pissss materialist.

 

No, everything that hasn't been tested, or can't be tested with our current knowledge is speculation. If you're going to say that things are different than what they seem, then provide evidence for it.

 

Please provide evidence it isn't.

 

Shifting the initial burden of proof is a logical fallacy. If you are going to suggest a different reality than the one already perceived to be, then it is you who must provide the evidence to challenge the current evidence.

 

dpunk please refer to the first two post.

 

Theres no evidence in there, only gaps of knowledge. The whole thing is based on things we don't know yet. I see no evidence, only things that we can't explain with our current knowledge of the human brain.

 

Yep...

 

Extremely interesting. I agree on most of the parts especially the one saying that our consciousness isn't situated within our brain. Once again, I will inform myself better about the argument, because the "alterlife" or "spirit" in my opinion DOES exist.

I heard too cases of blind people who described extremely accurate some details (such as surgery equipment) and this fact could be extremely important in proofing a spirit after our death (not necessarily clinic).