Staff opinion on my LoL Acc-->OSRS Acc Creation situation

Please see: Involved in an interesting OSRS Acc-->LoL Acc trade; wondering if anything is against Sythe rules

Can you please give input on the above situation?

As the situation progresses, I can update this thread with more exact details as to who I dealt with, the more specific intricacies of the trade, screenshots of Skype & PMs, etc.

For now, I just want to know if I'm "legally" in the clear to reclaim the account; and, if so, when may I do so?

 

In the likelihood that there could be two possibilities based on what was said in the thread and what you are saying here, I'm going to post both below, and give you my input.

Scenario #1 -

You and the worker both came to a mutual agreement on a service to be completed in order for the ownership of said league of legends account to be transferred.

The deadline for completion was set to two weeks, of which has already elapsed.

Conclusion (scenario #1) - As there was a mutual agreement on the trade, along with a deadline, said user is eligible for x amount of currency (pertinent to the trade) equal to the amount of work currently done, calculated at reasonable rates; as the agreement was the aforementioned, but wasn't completed in its entirety.

Scenario #2 -

You and the worker both came to a mutual agreement on what service is to be completed whereas the league of legends account has already been transferred to the person completing the order. The deadline for said work was 14 day(s).

Conclusion (scenario #2) - As you have already transferred the ownership of the product to be given for the completion of the service, but have not received said services in a timely manner and/or at all, in regards to the deadline set for the order. It is within your rights to reclaim the account as you were not provided with your end of their bargain, thus constituting a repossession of the account in question.

I'm sorry that this is not a staffs' opinion, but I felt it needed to be posted as a clarification on the situation as a whole.

 

The LoL account has not yet been transferred.

Additionally, "said user is eligible for x amount of currency (pertinent to the trade) equal to the amount of work currently done, calculated at reasonable rates; as the agreement was the aforementioned, but wasn't completed in its entirety." you did read the part where I asked him if he wanted to discuss exactly that, and he declined the opportunity, didn't you?

If you still believe the above to hold true, then what purpose whatsoever did my broaching the subject have, if I am to be held to "reasonable market rates" for the work completed anyway?

 

It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. If work has been done, money has to be paid for it. You can't just forget someone's invested time, and ignore it ever happened, or exists. That would be scamming.

A staffs' view will be the same. I am pretty confident about this, too.

 

I would ordinarily say you'd have to pay the user for the work done so far but you said that you offered such a clause and he said "absolutely not the account will be done 100%" so it's possible you might not owe him anything. It would help to see the entire conversation

 

So contracts mean nothing?

This is a poor analogy, but at the moment it's the best I can think of.

Let's consider the scenario in which a sample substance is sent off to a lab for a full GC/MS test. In case you aren't familiar, basically the substance is heated (destroyed) and processed by a machine by trained personnel; the results of this test can tell the interested party how much of each chemical was present in the substance. This is an important process when it comes to ensuring purity of drugs.

In essence: Party A gives an investment to Party B and offers payment for the completion of a service. The investment is time (the time it takes to conduct the test) and money (the product; the drug). The service expected is for full results regarding the composition to be received. Both parties verify these terms, and seal the deal.

Let's say Party B fails to uphold their end of the bargain. They prepare the substance successfully, and it looks as though they'll be successful in completing their job, but when they attempt to perform the full GC/MS, they mess up. The substance is destroyed and results are not available.

Do you still expect Party A to pay? They didn't contract Party B for preparing the substance. Not for nearly completing the job they were given. They were given a product, asked to turn it into another product (a drug --> results), and they failed. Party B's reputation should be damaged via a review ("Attempted to use this lab for testing of drug X. They destroyed the substance and I wasted a good deal of time...")

You see where I'm going.

Would you not agree?

My situation, in essence, is the same. I didn't give him this task for him to complete 50% of it. For him to nearly succeed. He was given specifications on what to turn the given product into (fresh level 3 w/ startup supplies --> specified OSRS account build) and he failed.

Personally, even if I hadn't explicitly attempted to discuss what would happen in the event he backed out of the deal, I don't think I should be forced, by some rule, to pay him for work completed. There's just too many factors. It should fall on the person performing the work to ensure they are covered in such an event.

I've already lost the time I allotted for him to do the task (not quite allotted -- that's hyperbole -- but he estimated a date of completion and I said something similar to 'there's no rush'), the additional time I gave him after this (he stated within the next week; that time has passed AND an additional week), money (in the form of startup gold provided), and, though intangible, inmeasurable opportunity. Had he handled this correctly, by entering into a discussion on what would happen in such a situation, this situation could have been handled, and I could have found someone suitable to complete the job, and I would have had a completed account long ago.

That would be immoral* impolite* frowned upon* are all possible corrections I would prefer in the place of scamming.

Let's try another quick analogy. Farming. I pay someone to harvest 5 rows of corn. They are given 1 week. They come back at the end of the week and say sorry, I've only done 2 rows so far. I'll be done by the end of next week.

I say okay, no rush.
*At this point, they don't get paid. I paid them to harvest 5 rows. Not to harvest 2 and force me to find someone else to complete the job. The job was 5 rows. I invested my farming tools, my time, etc. in them.


At the end of that week they don't contact me. I go out on the farm and see 4/5 rows are harvested. I try for 4 days, every day, to get in touch with them about this shortcoming. They are nowhere to be found.


What about my 5th row? What about the farming tools they used? The perishable material is now perished -- I have to cover that loss? That's implied!?

5th row = the rest of the progress to be made on the account
perishable farming materials = the bond purchased on the account, etc.


What shouldn't be ignored is their initial failure, their failure after being given additional time, their lack of communication, and their initial refusal to discuss a situation that [in my opinion] they should be both more concerned about and accountable for -- that they are unable to complete the task in its entirety.



The factors involved with doing this post-deal and just defaulting to side with the service provider are just unfathomably varying, thus creating an unfair situation.

Market conditions? What if Jagex decided to do away with the game? I'm supposed to pay them for a hiscores screenshot?

What if the price of gold rises in price to an incredible number? Let's say gold was now, currently, valued at $50/M. I gave them 5M~ startup money on the account, which they spent and got the account to 80% progress. I'm supposed to pay them? If anything, they should be paying me! My initial investment is worth more than all the work that they did.

I know what you're thinking -- we should be using the value of everything at the time, right? When the deal was first made? Hmm...just like we should be using the terms of the deal that were agreed to at that time, such as them turning down the offer of discussing breakpoints.

Thank you, this seems sensible.

After really thinking this through (read the above), I think that the burden of discussing such a clause should actually fall to the service provider. The thought of "I'm about to invest a lot of time and effort into doing this; therefore, I need to make sure my ass is covered in the event something goes wrong. I don't want to put in all this work and leave with nothing. Let me ask about ___..."

Can you give your point of view on which party should be accountable for ensuring such a clause is discussed anyway? I feel like doing anything after the deal is complete is a foolish, dangerous, slippery slope.

Whatever was not said at the time the two parties entered the agreement should remain unsaid forever. What was said here is that I would give him the LoL account upon the completion of the specified OSRS account.

Period.

Even had the clause not been discussed (hypothetically), why would he then be able to get OSRS GP, IRL currency, etc. after the fact? That was never discussed. I discussed the LoL account, the price of which is static at the completion of the OSRS account. Nothing inbetween; a discrete value.


Thoughts?








The current situation: the other party has stated they are no longer able to progress on the account. As such, I have recovered the account (to prevent a disgruntled previous employee from causing any damages), and have informed them that if they would like to attempt to acquire any reparations for the work they have completed, they will need to take their case to the staff, as I do not see any reason why I should be forced to pay them anything.

That is not to say, morally, I shouldn't pay them anything, only that I believe I should not be obligated to. Normally I would, but the factors of them explicitly declining to discuss the situation (my time is valuable, I offered it to them at that time to discuss this and they refused. they shouldn't be able to take my time at a point in the future to have that discussion they refused), they were given ample time and still failed, and they were not communicative, professional or cooperative throughout the process.

 

My issue is yes I agreed everything would be completely finished. I anticipated it to be finished but now due to personal issues I am on the street I don't have reliable internet or even a place to sleep. I'm trying to get stable again but I'm currently having an issue due to me being thrown out of my house. I expected things to be done. It due to this situation it has been prolonged. And I would have told snowbear sooner but At the time that this happened I wasn't even able to get on the internet at all.

 

A much better analogy:

People don't expect to have their house flooded. Although it is difficult to predict it will happen, flood insurance is available.

If the house floods and they didn't discuss that insurance with their insurance company, they simply lose everything. It is a shame, but that's how it works. Some lessons in life are very expensive. You can't go to your insurance after the fact and expect to be paid.


Correlating that to my situation (in the present time): I don't think they should now be able to come to me and expect to be paid.

They only wanted to discuss and enter into an agreement about what would happen in the event the account was completed (that the house remained unflooded). Something outside of the terms of the contract occurred (account incomplete and worker states they cannot continue working; house floods), and so they shouldn't be entitled to anything.


I'm not saying it's the way it should work. Saying things like "damn, the CEO of State Farm made 500 billion last year, they really can't replace my $5,000 in possessions? How was I supposed to know flood insurance differed from my insurance package? "

How to know? Ask before the unfortunate, unpredictable event happens.


Obtaining flood insurance is a burden that falls to the person with something to lose (the person putting work into creating this OSRS account); not to the insurance company.

 

My issue is yes I agreed everything would be completely finished. I anticipated it to be finished but now due to personal issues I am on the street I don't have reliable internet or even a place to sleep. I'm trying to get stable again but I'm currently having an issue due to me being thrown out of my house. I expected things to be done. It due to this situation it has been prolonged. And I would have told snowbear sooner but At the time that this happened I wasn't even able to get on the internet at all. And I was always able to answer to you and I always kept you updated on the account I have Skype logs to prove it but for you to say that I wasn't helpful or communicative I believe is inaccurate. I would message you almost on a daily basis and you would ignore me sometimes telling me there was nothing to say. I was polite with you the entire time I'm sorry this has happened it's not my fault. And I understand your analogy but this is not flood insurance man, this is my actually livlyhood I'm on the street I can't get a meal and all I ask is to please help. I have done work for you it's not insurance I have actually put time in for you and you don't even want to concider returning anything? Because of a flood analogy?

 

I believe most of this is addressed above. Your livelihood isn't any different from a home devastated by a flood. Like I said, you had the opportunity to discuss this, and you chose not to.


Also, putting this here. Thought of this, and believe it may be the most fair outcome of this messy situation.



Basically, if he can find a way to complete the account and compensate me for the time period between October 10th and when the account is finished, the terms of our deal would be met and he would get the LoL account in the end.

I understand this is a tough time for him, and obviously wouldn't be too harsh on the "late fee", but, at the end of the day, I have to consider my own time to be valuable.

 

So you want me to pay you? To complete the account, when I have no house no money? No internet? If I knew sooner I would have came to you and told you but if you are going to post skype conversations why don't you post it from the very beginning to the very end. All I'm asking for is a partial payment for the time completed. How am I supposed to trust someone else to complete the account and pay them on top of that pay you? Are you taking into account what I have already done for you what has already been completed? do you think it's morally right the situation that you are putting me in? After everything I have done if you are not going to pay me just say it and let a admin or mod decide the outcome I can't afford to keep going back and forth in my situation. And on top of that you can't reply to me on skype just like most of the time we have had the pleasure of meeting snowbear. Please just let's get this over with and resolved.

 

@video

 

I'd like to see full conversation before making a decision

 

At the end of the day, I'm not a charity.

You are not allowed to take my investment and do whatever you want with it for whatever length of time you like. You don't think late fees would be reasonable?

Are you taking into account your refusal to discuss payment in the event you couldn't complete the account?

I'll dig up a screenshot if necessary, but:

@video the more I think about the situation, the more obvious I feel the correct outcome should be. My analogies make perfect sense to me. Even without the refusal to discuss this event, had I not even offered to do such a thing, I feel as though legally I am in the right.


Edit: to clarify, I'm mainly waiting for Nugz to present an organized case. Something along the lines of: "I completed X work. Based on ___, I think Snowbear should pay me Y amount."

My creation of this thread and initiation of this discussion is, in my opinion, another thing that should not be an obligation of mine.

 

Ok well let's clear something up there's nothing about legality in any of this this is a rs black market forum calm down. Also it's been 3 days and I still haven't seen the conversation. I can't do anything until I see it

 

The entire conversation please not just the bits and pieces you want people to see @Snowbear

 

Update: I high scored the account to see how much progress was actually made in total. Ended up realizing the task was already failed. See below.

You know as well as I do that I use the word legality in the sense of me being banned/reprimanded on Sythe (lol).

 

So they ask for a conversation and you only show one page again? Can you Just show the conversation on stop trying to justify yourself?

 

1) It isn't my responsibility to provide evidence so that you can prove your point. I went out of my way to make this thread, just as I went out of my way to attempt to discuss the situation with you (out of my way = it is my belief that this is exactly like flood insurance or GC/MS testing).

2) and far more importantly, the full conversation nor this thread itself are needed. My initial concern was that the account was still in progress, and you could no longer continue working on it.

The *actual* situation is that the task has already been failed. You agreed to create an account with 0 xp in those two stats, and you have obtained XP in those two stats. It is now impossible to create the account as specified in our original agreement.

If you wish to continue this discussion for one reason or another, feel free to do so. Currently, I feel as though there is nothing "legally" or morally wrong with not providing you with any payment. You broke the terms of the contract; ruined the account. I've lost my initial investment and my time -- a loss I will have to accept.

To be clear, I don't mean to come off as heartless. But business is business. Once again, to use an analogy, if someone hired you to level their pure from 70-80 range for 15M OSRS GP, and you guaranteed it would not exceed 1 defense, then when they received the account back they noticed it was 80 range and 2 defense...you wouldn't be entitled to any payment for ruining the account.

I hope your situation improves. I'm strapped for cash myself at the moment, which is the primary reason why I'm not feeling so charitable. Best of luck to you.

 

Gl with your karma then mate, cuz karma is a bitch. As I said let a admin decide what Is right I honestly I don't fucking care what you're autistic ass has to say anymore, you wanna claim That I failed and ruined the account? LOL gl man. and by the way you made the post reporting me as a scammer so You must provide the screenshots of the conversation. I don't think you're heartless I just think you are a fucking moron, and you will get your's as I said karma does not forget...